The Voice of Public Service Meets the Partnership for Public Service

 

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Transcription

David Martin: This is the good government show.

Max Stier: We’re a nonpartizan nonprofit organization focused on better government and stronger democracy.

Make sure that you’re actually working on effectiveness, not just efficiency issues. This is a little bit like, you know, the college kid who says, I’m gonna save a bunch of money by not paying my electrical bill, and then just sit around in the dark like it’s easy to cut things. It’s, you know, you got to think about the consequences.

Are.

And in fact, most Americans, if you say federal government, think about bickering politicians in Washington, again, not the civil servants. You know no, organization gets better if all you do is kick it. And people know that in their own, you know, sort of parenting world, like positive reinforcement is more powerful than the negative.

Best jobs have three things the sense of real purpose, working with great people and getting real responsibility. And there’s no place where you can get all three of those things more than in government.

David Martin: I’m here on the Good Government Show. We call ourselves the voice of public service, but there are others on the Good government team. I recently met the good people at the partnership for Public Service. It turns out we’re sort of brothers in arms of touting good government. Based in Washington, D.C., they are a national center for public service.

Welcome to the Good Government show. I’m Dave Martin. On this episode, I talk with Max Stier. He’s the president and CEO of the partnership for Public Service. For 24 years, they’ve been supporting and promoting public service. They assist with presidential transitions, support civil service and public service workers, and generally promote good government. And that’s something we can certainly get behind.

I do interesting route to find out about this organization. I recently spoke with Casey Cep. She is one of the writers of a new book out called Who Is Government? So if you haven’t heard that show, make sure you do. All right. I’ll go ahead. I’ll wait, I’ll wait. Go listen and then come back. Okay. Good. Welcome back.

Anyway, she wrote about the organization, also wrote an article about it in the New Yorker magazine. I was instantly interested in talking with this organization, so I started at the top. Max Stier has a long history in public service, first as a congressional aide, then a law clerk for judges, including on the US Supreme Court, and as a deputy general counsel at the Department of Housing and Urban Development.

He now works at promoting good government through supporting the work of our nation’s public servants. Here’s something I didn’t know. The number of people who work in government is roughly the same as it was in 1969. That was the year of Woodstock. The landing on the moon. Richard Nixon was president, and here we are. And the government is about the same size.

I don’t see a bloated government. We talked about trust in government, and now we can all make sure we get the government we need and we want. So coming up, my conversation with Max Stier of the partnership for Public Service.

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Welcome to the Good Government Show. I am very happy to have Max Stier, who is the president and CEO of the partnership for Public Service. Welcome to the show, Max.

Max Stier: Thank you for having me.

David Martin: So we call ourselves the Voice of Public Service, and we thought we were until I met you. But. But you and the partnership for Public Service truly are the voice of public service. Just start off with tell me a little bit about the organization. A lot of people don’t know about it and it’s an important function.

Max Stier: Well, first of all we need many voices. So it’s good to meet a fellow traveler. The work you do is incredibly important. And, as you say, we’ve been, at this for 24 years now. We’re a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization focused on better government and stronger democracy. And our theory of the case is that we have one tool for collective action as a society that has a premature the public and taxpayer resources behind it.

So our federal government and the better it works, the better we all we are all off. So, we focus on trying to get good talent into the federal government, making sure as well led. And we’ve worked on the relationship between our society and our government. That is our pre, the current administration. And now we’re focused on supporting civil servants, engaging the public and working to expand our marketing to state and local governments that also need the kinds of services that we’ve been providing at the federal level, at least as much as the federal government.

David Martin: We’re going to get back to the federal government in just a minute. We are not going to leave that aside, but I want to just talk a little bit about your organization. How long have you been around?

Max Stier: So, I started it today more than two decades ago. 24 years ago, we actually our first, launch event was on, 911, 2001. We were in the capital. It was, a, launch event that was hosted by Joe Lieberman, who at that point was the, chair of the Senate Government Affairs Committee.

And, Dan Burton, who was the chair of the House Government Affairs Committee and the Government Reform Committee at that time. And, we were there when the Capitol Police came in and said, get out, get out, get out. And we learned that, you know, planes had obviously hit the World Trade Center and one was headed towards the Capitol where we were.

And, you know, that really underscored the importance of what we were trying to do, which is, make sure our government was working as effectively as possible. So it’s been, 24 years. And, we have learned a lot about what makes government better. And we’re learning a lot right now about what makes it worse.

David Martin: Yes we are. Where did the idea come from? How did how did this start?

Max Stier: So, I had, working government, at all three branches and high school for my local congressman, Republican in Iowa, Jim Leach, two, two stints and, the executive branch, the Department justice and the Department of Housing and Urban Development and for two federal judges. And when I left my last job in government as a deputy general counsel at HUD, I met with like 80 people within three weeks.

And one of them was Sam Hayman, who was a business guy from Connecticut, who was concerned about talent coming into our government in the same way as it had when he come out of law school in 1963. And he basically agreed to bankroll an effort to create a nonprofit to focus on getting good talent in. And we learned that getting good talent in was part of the puzzle, not the whole thing.

And that’s where we, you know, thought about the importance of making sure the organization itself was well and well managed. So, the idea was his, and, he was an incredible partner to Lee, you know, passed away prematurely. And, we are we are running forward with, the idea and trying to make a difference.

David Martin: I have a theory. I’m going to run by you. I think one of the unfortunate, one of the many unfortunate, enduring legacies of President Nixon is that it really shifted people from getting excited about getting into public service in government. And it really made people say, why would I want to get involved in that? Do you think that that’s a valid theory?

Max Stier: You know, so, I think, you know, Nixon is as obviously a complicated character. He, he, you know, in fact, created a lot of important elements of our federal government, including the, you know, the EPA. Right. I think if you look at today’s government, with respect to, a lot of the issues that are at play right now, it was all in response to him.

So if you think about Inspector General, the Ethics and Governments Act, that merit Systems Protection Board, you know, there was a reaction to his effort to seize, a lot of control from Congress and and from the people. Yeah. And there are a lot of institutions that were created over the last, you know, 50 years ago to address the, the power grab that Nixon had engaged in.

So on that level, he was actually not, you know, intentionally responsible for a lot of the important structural elements of our government that we’ve seen the current administration just try to wipe away in terms of the public’s, or rather, the talent’s interest in government. I would say that even to this day, I just spoke at Georgetown University to a bunch of students who, came to Georgetown in order to work in the federal government.

There still is significant interest in public service and in government service. I don’t think Nixon turn that off. I do think that politicians of the day, Republicans and Democrats, tend to run against government in ways that are counterproductive to what their real responsibilities should actually be. I think the bigger challenge is less the interest in going into government than our government being well-led, so that our government is actually seeking out that best talent, and especially that young talent.

The things that are happening today are plainly going to damage the brand of working in government. They’re damaging the people that are there today. But I think the underlying value proposition, the purpose, which I think is so fundamental to so many, is so powerful is no bigger, more important stage to to serve the public. And in our federal government that I think we can come back from it, so long as we actually have leaders who understand the importance of a government that is there for the public rather than their own private interests and and a government that needs best in class, expert talent and nonpartisan talent.

So I don’t think my.

David Martin: Theory doesn’t completely hold up.

Max Stier: No, I don’t think so. I you know, there’s there’s there’s a lot of blame to go around. And I’m less interested in the blame practices.

David Martin: How many people work in public service.

Max Stier: So in the federal government at the civilian side, there are about 2.3 million. It’s the same size as it was in 1969. So again, one of the, you know, just basic mistakes that the current administration is making is this idea that you cut the size of government by cutting the federal workforce itself. That’s not actually how you either measure the size of any organization or certainly of government.

And if you want to cut back on our government, the way to do that is to do it through Congress, first off. And secondly, it’s to make sure that you’re actually working on effectiveness, not just efficiency issues. This is a little bit like, you know, the college kid who says, I’m going to save a bunch of money by not paying my electrical bill and then just sits around in the dark, right, like it’s easy to cut things is, you know, you you got to think about the consequences are, so, okay, so I said 2.3 million that are, you know, and the civilian workforce, if you look at it across the board, it’s about

16 million people, if you count, you know, state, local and federal government. And, you know, that’s the teacher, the police officers, firefighters and.

David Martin: Everybody 16.5 million. Do you have any idea what that represents in terms of the population, the employment population segment? I mean, it’s that it’s.

Max Stier: Small like that. You know, we we we so I think like if you look at the federal workforce, you’re, you’re, you know, you’re barely over 1% of the overall labor force, I think and as I said in absolute terms, that number hasn’t grown since 1969. And in relative terms, it’s obviously diminished as a proportion of the workforce.

It’s not that large. You know, it’s and it’s certainly not going to give you the savings that, that, that the, that the, the DOJ’s team, you know, claim that they want. It represents about 4% of the total federal budget. So, you know. Yeah. And, and and, you know, one of the more extraordinary things that they did is, you know, upend the IRS.

So you’re going to lose $500 billion in tax collection, right? Because of what they do in the IRS, which is, you know, basically twice over what the entire federal workforce is costing the American taxpayer. So, you know, this is this is clearly a creation of waste. Now, it’s not addressing waste.

David Martin: So, you know, we’ve been on for four years. We’ve had over 100 shows. I’ve talked to probably over 200 people in public service. I’ve heard some incredible stories. What do you find draws people to public service? Why do they go into this?

Max Stier: Yeah, it goes back to this question of purpose. I think most people are fundamentally motivated by wanting to make the world a better place, wanting to feel like they have, led a good life. And you, you have that in your workplace when you feel like what you’re doing is making a difference for others. I think this notion of service to others is incredibly powerful.

It certainly, you know, what you see for those that are in uniform service, that are in the military, it’s worth noting that a third of the civilian workforce is actually former military. There’s a reason for that. It’s the same thing, really, is that that that service piece that is drawing people. You know, if you’re a federal prosecutor and you stand up and saying, I’m representing the United States, that’s a powerful, you know, sense of, pride that that draws from people.

So what we’ve seen, though, is that, you know, you have this profound sense of purpose, but by and large, the the leadership has fallen down on the job. And we know this because we one of the other programs we run is called the Best Place to Work rankings. We got a law passed that requires every agency to conduct an annual employee survey.

And employees speak to purpose, no matter where they are, across the entire government. And they also, relative to the private sector, have a higher sense of purpose and lower sense of the leaders that are actually in charge of the organization. So and you put better leaders together with that purpose and you would see incredible performance. Way, way better even then than we have today.

David Martin: There was a lot of talk, by one party and one person in particular about a deep state. Is there a deep state? And could there even be a deep state if you wanted to have one?

Max Stier: Well, not yet, but I think that the current administration is intending and on track to actually create one. And this is such an important proposition. You just think a little bit about the US history. We had this before, and this was in the 19th century, where the spoils system, was in place. And what that meant is whoever won the presidency was able to put their loyalists and partizan into federal jobs.

And there are all these amazing stories about presidents being chased by job seekers in the white House. What.

David Martin: The president.

Max Stier: Is.

David Martin: I’m sorry. And one of them shot a president.

Max Stier: There you go. So that that was really the end of it. It was, you know, President Garfield in 1881 where that disgruntled job seeker shot Garfield, killed him. And the vice president at the time, who had been part of this system, said, this is not a good system.

David Martin: My favorite president, Chester Arthur.

Max Stier: Yes, yes, you got it exactly right. And, the you know, the Pendleton Act was passed two years later and it set us on a course for professionalizing the civil service, making it nonpartisan and expert based. And for 140 years, we’ve had Republican and Democratic presidents, you know, supporting the idea that that’s how we provide better service to the American people.

So the current administration is an outlier. It’s taking us back to that 19th century model that was, failed then and is actually worse today because we have a more dangerous, more complex world. And that’s not stopping them. Unfortunately, the only thing that’s going to stop them is a public that activates and ultimately understands and cares.

But it is, really, so important to every aspect of our lives. And you can just look at other countries that move to, you know, autocracy. It begins by blowing up the civil service and blowing up the rule of law. And, you know, and going after institutions like law firms and universities. And the list is long. So, you know, we are on a we are on a very, very, bad force, and one that we have, you know, understanding from our own history and from other countries in the world.

David Martin: You have a survey I read on your website, you did in 2024, only 23% of Americans trust the federal government, and that’s down from 35% in 2022. What can we do? I mean, how can the good government show help to restore trust in public service and in government?

Max Stier: Certainly. And this is so important because, trust is, you know, fundamental currency in democracy. Like once the public gives up on that tool for collective action or government, then it falls apart and, you know, yours is the most important question. Not, you know, admiring the problem, but rather focusing on what the potential solutions are, what we’ve seen from all the research we’ve done is, you know, the antidote is twofold, one of which is you need our government to perform better.

It needs to be more trustworthy. And there are a lot of good ways of doing that that are constructive. And they begin with getting the right leaders who are actually focused on the public good and have expertise in running large organizations. And in addition to trustworthy, you need that trust piece. And a lot of that comes from Americans actually knowing more about their government.

So, you know, the civil service in particular, is, you know, viewed by most as sort of that faceless bureaucracy, because people don’t have the information that they actually should have about who those folks are, that 80% of them are actually living with in their regions, in their neighborhoods, and they’re outside of DC. Most the questions around trust that are, that are, that are used to measure trust, ask the question, do you trust the government in Washington?

And when you add those final two words in Washington, game over, like, no, I know and trust anything from Washington. And in fact, most Americans, if you say federal government, think about bickering politicians in Washington, again, not the civil servant. So, it is your show. You know, these kinds of efforts are really fundamental to helping the public understand who actually is government and who these people are and why, they are actually their neighbors and people who are devoted to serving the public.

And I are providing vital services. So having that granular understanding about, yeah, this is the person who’s making sure when I buy my hamburger meat, my kids don’t get sick, because they, they’ve ensured that that the meat is still good or, you know, when I drink the water or when I go to the airport, and fly on that plane, not going to knock into some other plane.

I mean, like, these are all things we take for granted, and they are all things that civil servants are ensuring actually happen, and they are all at risk.

David Martin: Today, I want to talk about the Sami Awards. This is an awards program that you folks have put together where you highlight, people who work in public service. Some incredible stories. I’m looking at last year’s list of winners. You have some folks from the Department of Labor. You have someone from mine safety who just try to make the mine safe.

Better patent and trade office, office of Management and Budget. Health standards and technology. I mean, just an incredible list of people. The one thing I noticed is most of these administrations are these these sub offices I’ve never heard of, right? I mean, these are people who are not in it for the money and are certainly not in it for the same, you know, what draws them in and when.

What what is the theme that you’ve noticed in the Sami awards that you’ve been giving out since, I guess for over 20 years now?

Max Stier: Yeah. So look, the purpose of the awards are to recognize people who really deserve it and priority areas that no organization gets better if all you do is kick it. And people know that in their own, you know, sort of parenting world, like positive reinforcement is more powerful than the negative. And so these have really become the Oscars of government service.

You know, you mentioned the agencies, but just think about the things that they’ve accomplished, like the gentleman from the mine, you know, safety, office where, you know, there were 50,000 Americans who have died in coal mine, roof collapses. And I think it’s the most significant workplace, you know, cause of death. And this guy spent his career figuring out how do you stop, those coal mines from collapsing?

And, you know, he himself, he worked in a coal mine, and he, you know, figured out, an awful lot of it such that we went for a period of, like, eight or plus years recently where no one died. And, he is fundamentally reshaped by the coal mining safety, in that industry, because of his dedication to the public.

You say, you ask, why is it that he did it? He did it because he. You know, that sense of purpose is the life well led. You know that he knows that there are probably thousands of people who are alive today and will be alive in the future because of the dedication he had to the public. Good.

That’s that’s there’s nothing else you can possibly do that will give you that kind of satisfaction. And that’s true for all these people. The other elements that are quite, amazing about them is that their, their self modesty is, is is a is is unbelievable. I think it’s a two edged sword, you know, because because they are so modest, they do not share their story.

And that information doesn’t come out very well and their leadership doesn’t actually share that story. So it’s important for these stories to get out. I think as we’re watching the the destruction of so much in a senseless way of the federal government and, and attacks on federal workers, I’m hoping the American people will take the opportunity to actually learn what it is that they’re losing.

It’d be better if they had paid attention before they lost it. But but it’s fundamental that they understand it now. Because, that’s the only way we’re going to hold on to some part of it, and we’ll be able to rebuild eventually.

David Martin: So we have a good government show questionnaire. I’m going to go through that with you in just a moment.

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David Martin: We have a good government. Your question here. I’m going to amend it a little bit because you’re not an elected leader. But but you certainly have worked in government to find good government. What is it. What is it look like?

Max Stier: Good government is government that meets the public’s need. That in an in a in an effective fashion. As I said earlier, government is about solving big problems for our for our society. And good government is one that delivers results for people here in this country.

David Martin: What should people do if they don’t like what they see in government? And if they don’t like what government is doing in their town, in their neighborhood, in their state.

Max Stier: So they need to speak up and in my advice would be, don’t just flag the problem, you know, try to provide some ideas about what the solution might be. And part of finding the solution would be to find someplace where it’s better. I think bright spotting is a great way to make everything better.

David Martin: Sorry. Say it again.

Max Stier: Ray spotting. So find the good thing. Yeah. And it’s one thing that doesn’t happen enough in government. Some place, somewhere is doing whatever you’re concerned about in a better way. Helping find that and raising it up is a way of of improving it for everybody.

David Martin: What drew you to public service?

Max Stier: The the ability to make a difference? I think, again, best jobs have three things a sense of real purpose, working with great people and getting real responsibility. And there’s no place where you can get all three of those things more than in government.

David Martin: Who inspires you?

Max Stier: Lots of people inspire me. So, you know, thinking about Teddy Roosevelt is one who, you know, really was, you know, the father of the modern civil service. Yeah. But, there are there are so many civil servants today, especially ones that are continuing to work in government despite the incredible challenges that they face.

And in doing their jobs, they inspire me in a big way.

David Martin: Are there any stories that you’ve heard? You know, in the, in the partnership for Public Service where you just went, oh my God, I had no idea.

Max Stier: All the time. So you mentioned the Sammy’s, stuff. We have one. There’s, Frazier Lockhart, who was responsible for cleaning up a a nuclear waste site in Colorado. And he did it. And I’m going to get this wrong and specifics, but right in the general point, but decades earlier than the plans called for and tens of billion dollars cheaper, like it was insane.

And now it’s a nature preserve, like, so like, you know, so it’s like for the guy who, you know, eradicated polio in India, like, you know, small things like that, like they, they’re, they’re the consequences are, are, are fantastically large and meaningful.

David Martin: You’ve been in government and now you’re working at the partnership for Public Service. What would you like people to know about government that they probably don’t know.

Max Stier: That, our government is is ours. And therefore if we if we want a better society, the way to do it is not to trash our government, but to work, to make it, to make it better.

David Martin: With the current administration in place, what are you scared of the most?

Max Stier: I am scared of the move to convert our government into a tool for private interest, rather than the public good. I think that is fundamentally what is at stake right now. And, it is it is the it’s the road to autocracy and it and we will lose our democracy and our, our, our, our amazing place in the world if we permit that to happen.

David Martin: You’re the partnership for public Service. What is your priority? What is your main goal? What is your main priority right now?

Max Stier: Three priorities. So the first is supporting civil servants. They deserve it and they need it right now. The second is to engage the public and the third is to take our work to the state and local side.

David Martin: So we’re the good government show. We call ourselves the voice of public service. As I said, we thought we were till we met you. What can we do better?

Max Stier: Look, I think that we need many voices, not just one. So thank you for doing what you’re doing. I hope that as more Americans pay attention, they’ll pay more attention to your show. And see, too, you know. Yeah, that keep up what you’re doing and, you know, you know, tell the stories of what’s happening to the federal government right now that that’s that’s really important.

David Martin: Are you optimistic? Give us a reason to be hopeful.

Max Stier: I am optimistic. I think for us, that hopelessness is the enemy of justice. Okay. It’s sad. So you got to stay hopeful. There’s no there’s no there’s no percentage. And not being hopeful. There are two things that make me hopeful, though. The one is that I think this is an opportunity to engage the public. The last time the public really cared about the nature of our government was on the heels of the last royal system.

I think this is a wake up call. We’re all going to be getting in, in a in a brutal way and a public engaged and understanding is good for the health of our country. And the second is it’s an opportunity not to return to the status quo, the prior status quo, but to get better, to modernize our government in a smarter way.

Our government is a legacy organization that has not kept up with the world around it. That’s not the fault of the civil servants. It’s poor leadership that has led us to where we are. But we all need to actually work to improve our government. So that, in fact, is delivering the results that we want and in a better way.

David Martin: Do you see leaders out there who are going to be ready to step up? And do you do you see on the horizon, a better path forward?

Max Stier: I do see a better path forward. That’s kind of easy because the path we’re on is so bad. And then secondly, I think there are a lot of leaders out there, and there are a lot of leaders that will emerge. You know, I have two, two kids and I’m watching them. They’re both in college. And you look at them and you’re like, you know, they’re they’re they’ve got good hearts and committed again to the public.

Good. And, you know, they I watch their friends and talk to a lot of young people. We have insanely amazing, you know, people and young people in our country. And we owe them, you know, that path forward, and they will be part of that path. So, yes, I have a lot of hope.

David Martin: Well, that’s good. And that sounds like we have good government in the future. The president and CEO of the partnership for Public Service, it was a pleasure to meet you and talk with you. And I hope this is the start of a long relationship between the good government show and public service. So thank you for that. Thanks for coming on.

Max Stier: Okay. Thank you.

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When you look at the list of winners of the partnership for Public Services there Sammies what do you see? Our people who work in government with one goal making the lives of the American people better. Here’s two winners. We didn’t get to talk about three people from the San Francisco office of the EPA. They directed the cleanup of over 300 people who remove tons of hazardous materials following the fires in Maui, Hawaii.

Also, two people from a government agency called the National Institute of Standards and Technology who created the first tornado resistant building codes. None of these people, they didn’t do it for the front page headlines. Good, because they didn’t get any or for big promotions erases. They did it because that’s what our nation’s public servants do good work to improve our lives.

If Max Stier, the president and CEO of the partnership for Public Service, is optimistic, I think we can all be optimistic, too. But bear in mind his words get educated about government and get involved. It’s our government and that friends and neighbors, is good government. Well, that’s our show. Thanks for listening. This is another example of how government works for all of us.

Please like us and share this with your friends and review us right here. You’re listening and check out our website. Good Government show.com for extras. Help us keep telling stories of good government and action everywhere. Join us again for another episode right here. We’re listening. I’m Dave Martin and this is the Good Government show.

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**This transcription was created using digital tools and has not been edited by a live person. We apologize for any discrepancies or errors.