Mayors Turn Down the Political Noise

00:00:00:04 – 00:00:03:40
David Martin
This is the good government show.

00:00:03:45 – 00:00:15:20
David Holt
They could see outcomes at other levels of government as well. If they would think about what makes city government so effective.

00:00:15:25 – 00:00:26:22
David Holt
There’s no room for this entertainment politics that dominates state and federal governments right now, because we actually have to produce results.

00:00:26:27 – 00:00:37:19
David Holt
The strange reality is there’s actually quite a few big cities, especially in this part of the country, that don’t pay their mayors a living wage.

00:00:37:24 – 00:00:51:54
David Holt
In America, especially among the top 50 cities, like, like sports is is your calling card. Sports is how you lift the identity and brand of your city.

00:00:51:59 – 00:01:01:58
David Holt
Really just spend a day in a city government across the United States, and you’ll largely be left with an impression of what good government looks like.

00:01:02:03 – 00:01:20:31
David Martin
We are humans first, Americans second, and Partizans last. That is one of the ten points in the Oklahoma City Declaration, a compact signed by some 230 of America’s mayors. That’s the topic of today’s show with the mayor of Oklahoma City. First, help us show the message of good government by liking us and sharing us where we are. In your favorite social media.

00:01:20:33 – 00:01:35:17
David Martin
Make sure to leave a comment and join our good Government show community. Check out our website for the link. David Hull is the mayor of Oklahoma City and now past president of the Conference of Mayors. If you listen to the show, you know, I attend their conferences and talk with a lot of America’s mayors. David Holt stands out.

00:01:35:18 – 00:01:53:00
David Martin
Well, first, he’s really tall, but he was also a dynamic conference president. Seeing the political landscape, as he will explain, he saw a need to bring people together and to denounce political violence in all its forms. So mayors from both parties and independent mayors all signed on to the Oklahoma City Declaration. It’s actually pretty short. Just two pages.

00:01:53:02 – 00:02:08:59
David Martin
Check out our show notes for a link and you can read it yourself. And you should. Mayor Holden, I discussed the statement, what it means, the idea behind it, and what it says about politics, government, and all of us at this moment in history. And we talk about how mayors get stuff done and we talk sports. Oklahoma City is a sports city.

00:02:09:06 – 00:02:21:49
David Martin
The mayor is building on that and helping grow their sports footprint, all while delivering more services. Coming up, a long and lively conversation with Mayor David Holt of Oklahoma City.

00:02:21:53 – 00:02:45:37
David Martin
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00:02:45:38 – 00:02:56:51
David Martin
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00:02:56:56 – 00:03:15:14
David Martin
Once you wrap up this episode of The Good Government Show, give a listen to our friends over at Good News for lefties. This daily podcast highlights news stories that show there’s more good news out there. Other people in government are really trying to do the right thing. That’s good news for lefties. Listen where you’re listening now.

00:03:15:19 – 00:03:21:38
David Martin
Welcome back to The Good Government Show, my friend. And yours, the mayor of Oklahoma City, David Holt. David, good to see you again. How are you doing?

00:03:21:40 – 00:03:23:38
David Holt
Great to see you. Thank you for having me again.

00:03:23:40 – 00:03:44:24
David Martin
Listen, you are the past president now of the United States Conference of Mayors, and therefore, you’ve got a really unique perspective on what’s going on across America. And one of the things that I keep hearing from mayors in various forms is mayors get stuff done. So why is it that that’s something I keep hearing from mayors and is it true?

00:03:44:27 – 00:04:00:31
David Holt
Well, of course it’s true. And I think we you hear it a lot because we take great pride in it, and maybe it’s not. Maybe it’s definitely true or now than it’s ever been. And to, to get into the weeds a little bit I mean this is a long form type format here.

00:04:00:33 – 00:04:02:33
David Martin
Yes it is. We have time. As much time as you have.

00:04:02:35 – 00:04:40:23
David Holt
We can really get into why this is because it needs to be understood by the American people, because they could they could see outcomes at other levels of government as well. If they would think about what makes city government so effective. So at the city level in America, most mayors are elected through and I don’t know all the historical reasons for this, but most mirrors are elected in a system where all the voters are a part of the decision, which stands in stark contrast to the way that most senators and governors and state legislators are elected.

00:04:40:26 – 00:05:11:22
David Holt
They are usually elected through a closed Partizan primary process. Now, not as these things is exclusively true across the board, but most people run through close Partizan primaries and most mayors do not. And so, for example, when I run for mayor of Oklahoma City, all the people get the exact same ballot in Oklahoma City. And so I am incentivized to build a coalition of everybody, or at least the what I call kind of the 70% of people in the middle like, which might be Republicans, Democrats and independents.

00:05:11:26 – 00:05:47:34
David Holt
This is kind of like how American democracy is, like structured to work, except that it doesn’t today, but it still does at the city level. And so as a as a candidate for mayor and as a mayor, I am constantly working with that coalition of 70% of people in the middle. And I pretty much ignore I mean, like, I want to be like fair and a good person and listen to everybody, but I pretty much don’t really follow the needs or wants of the 15% of people who live on the extremes, which, you know, on the far right are like, you know, fascists and racists and, you know, a significant part of sort of the

00:05:47:34 – 00:06:05:04
David Holt
MAGA crowd on the far left. It’s the DSA, which is making a lot of news lately in Democratic primaries. They’re just not a part of the governing coalition. I mean, I’d love for them to be more a part of the the group that influences the direction of Oklahoma City, but they don’t really want to be a part of, like, anything that’s not.

00:06:05:06 – 00:06:18:15
David Martin
And as mayor weekly or probably weekly, at least monthly, you have open council meetings and meetings of city government and people come up to you and they tell you exactly what they think, don’t they?

00:06:18:20 – 00:06:26:32
David Holt
Right. And unfortunately, I would say like social media comments and comments at a council meeting tend to be dominated by the extremes. Okay.

00:06:26:36 – 00:06:32:26
David Martin
But you got to but you but but as mayor you you you have to give them their two minutes of their time. But you here.

00:06:32:39 – 00:06:51:59
David Holt
I’m always I’m always listening. I’m looking for something productive. And fortunately it happens less than than it does with the 70% of people in the middle who are all still. They all have their principles, and they’re clearly not registered with the same political parties. But like they all learned in kindergarten how to compromise in the other. And so that’s who mayors work with.

00:06:51:59 – 00:07:00:37
David Holt
So that’s the first reason that mayors get stuff done. And I know you chuckled when you said that because you wanted to say a different word, I think. But yes, but.

00:07:00:39 – 00:07:02:53
David Martin
That said, it’s a podcast. We can say, get shit done.

00:07:02:53 – 00:07:03:48
David Holt
It’s okay.

00:07:03:53 – 00:07:04:20
David Martin
Yeah.

00:07:04:34 – 00:07:30:18
David Holt
So so mayors get stuff done because we work with everybody and we actually can often move with what is the closest thing to consensus in American politics? I mean, I routinely I’ve run, you know, for major tax initiatives now and all of them got over 70%. And that’s consensus. I mean, that, you know, in in American political jargon, 60% is a landslide.

00:07:30:18 – 00:07:50:02
David Holt
We don’t really have a word for 70%. So I’m going to use the word consensus to describe what we what we do here. And clearly in a city that’s very purple and it’s about 5050 and political registration, if you’re getting 70%, you’re getting people from across the spectrum, maybe not the extremes, but you’re getting the 70% of people in the middle.

00:07:50:02 – 00:08:19:39
David Holt
So everyone else, though, who runs for governor and runs for Congress, they run through this political this close Partizan primary. And now all of a sudden, those 15% at each extreme that I just described as being kind of irrelevant in our system, they’re the decision makers, you know, they’re the ones that those people have to pander to, and they drag the candidates way out to the extremes and not just extremes and positions, but also extremes and temperament, extreme, you know, extremes and approach and style.

00:08:19:39 – 00:08:40:33
David Holt
They’re chasing conspiracy theories. I mean, they’re, they’re they’re kind of ignoring facts and data and obviously it guess what? At least a dysfunctionality. It leads to polarization, which means they’re nothing’s going to get done in Washington because you have instead of having a bunch of pragmatists, you have, you know, just two groups of people who are so far apart they’ll never be able to compromise.

00:08:40:35 – 00:09:06:53
David Holt
And in fact, their voters don’t want them to. And so that’s why we that’s the first reason we get things done. The other reason is necessity. Like the services we provide literally make life possible, right? I we fail to deliver you water this week. You’re going to die. But so this this there’s no room for this entertainment politics that dominates state and federal governments right now because we actually have to produce results.

00:09:06:53 – 00:09:15:36
David Holt
We can’t just live for months on on tweets and press conferences. You know, like we actually have to produce something.

00:09:15:38 – 00:09:23:04
David Martin
You have to fix the potholes. You have to you have to get to make the show. The police department shows up at the emergency. You have to make sure the water is clean.

00:09:23:11 – 00:09:43:03
David Holt
Right? So so I mean, you know, there are at the same federal level that should move with that same level of necessity and urgency, but they largely don’t. And so, I mean, the federal government has shut down. I, you know, a dozen times it feels like since I became mayor eight years ago, my government hasn’t shut down in 130 years.

00:09:43:08 – 00:09:47:39
David Martin
So because if you did, it would reopen later that afternoon.

00:09:47:46 – 00:10:07:01
David Holt
Yeah. So it’s you know, the stark contrast has has never been starker between what is happening in American cities. And so yeah, we do take great pride and we talk about it a lot. But we also wouldn’t mind if somebody would think of emulating us. You know, it’s not like we really want to be the only functional level of government left in America.

00:10:07:04 – 00:10:29:36
David Holt
We would like to see the state and federal governments carry their weight as well, but that’s going to be hard to see until there are really reforms in this country that create different incentive structures for candidates. I mean, really starts at the elections, you know, so when people want to talk to me about hot topics in politics, I end up talking about election reform.

00:10:29:36 – 00:10:51:16
David Holt
And that seems like to them, maybe a direction from the the issue they wanted to talk about. But I’m like, you know, you’re never going to get this outcome that might be supported in polling by 70% of Americans until 70% of Americans actually get to elect people, because that’s not what currently happening. The only polls that matter are the ones in a Democratic primary or in a Republican primary.

00:10:51:20 – 00:11:12:09
David Holt
These these polls, we say we all Americans were asked what they think about, you know, gun reform and and 70% said they support this. That’s kind of like irrelevant, because that’s not how we run elections in America. It should be how we run elections in America. We should we should let rule. But we are living in the tyranny of the minority due to our close Partizan primaries.

00:11:12:10 – 00:11:14:05
David Martin
Would you be in favor of shorter election cycles?

00:11:14:07 – 00:11:25:38
David Holt
Yeah. I don’t know how you would like police that, you know, without kind of infringing on the First Amendment, I suppose. Be sure. Yeah. I mean, it’s a little ridiculous how long all this lasts, but but I would say the biggest I mean, there’s lots of things.

00:11:25:50 – 00:11:36:46
David Martin
Shorter election cycle means less money spent on advertising, which means less money that has to go to a campaign, which means, you know, less money all around. And that might be a better idea.

00:11:36:51 – 00:11:42:49
David Holt
Yeah, I think you’re I mean, I have a hard time wrapping my mind around how you would get that passed the First Amendment.

00:11:42:49 – 00:11:43:46
David Martin
So other countries.

00:11:43:46 – 00:11:45:36
David Holt
Do it. Yeah. Well, they don’t have a First Amendment.

00:11:45:39 – 00:12:05:21
David Martin
True. Okay. All right. Well, the reason why you’re here today and the reason why I wanted to have you back on the show is when you were the president of the Conference of Mayors. You got 230 mayors, more or less of both parties and independents, to agree to something you called the Oklahoma City Declaration, which you got signed in Oklahoma City, where you are the mayor.

00:12:05:21 – 00:12:26:46
David Martin
And basically what this is, is this says we 230 mayors want to put an end to political violence and harsh, degrading political rhetoric. You basically described it as anti-democratic and anti-American. Have I explained it correctly and would you please explain it?

00:12:26:51 – 00:13:08:53
David Holt
Yes, you have, but yeah, let me put it in my words. So as you as you indicated, for the last year, I was president of the nation’s mayors, president of the US Conference of Mayors. And in that capacity, I hosted the leadership of the conference, about 50 mayors in Oklahoma City in the fall of last year, 2025. And, of course, to remind your listeners, not that they wouldn’t know, but, you know, Oklahoma City in 1995 was the site of the deadliest domestic terror attack in U.S. history, an incident that we see echoes of today in many in many ways, because that same kind of extreme rhetoric has almost been mainstreamed today and on the national

00:13:08:53 – 00:13:32:54
David Holt
level. And and so I think as a city for these last eight years, I’ve really felt the obligation to remind people about the Oklahoma City bombing and to remind people that there’s a scar in my downtown that represents the logical outcome of a lot of the extremism and polarization and dehumanization that you see right now in national political rhetoric.

00:13:32:54 – 00:14:00:07
David Holt
And the words are the first steps towards violence, right? And so when we had everybody here, this was right after the murder of Charlie Kirk, like a week after. And I thought we had an interesting opportunity with all these mayors in town, this being the site of the bombing in the wake of this, this, this high profile act of political violence that had kind of shaken everybody across the spectrum.

00:14:00:11 – 00:14:20:27
David Holt
Why don’t I write something that we could all sign and it would be pretty meaningful. And I guess I say like, you know, to just hear it described as like, compact against political violence sounds like no big deal. I mean, who’s for political violence, right? But I would encourage people to do is to Google it and actually read it.

00:14:20:27 – 00:14:43:59
David Holt
It’s like three pages, maybe 2 to 2. It’s it is not hard to read. No. And I actually think you walk away thinking, well, it’s actually a very pragmatic and very useful pathway to a better politics in America. And it is more than just saying you shouldn’t have political violence. I mean, there’s talk in there about.

00:14:44:02 – 00:15:05:44
David Martin
Well, I want to go over some of these things because this whole declaration does sound like very good government. So we like that here in the Good Government show. So there’s a couple of things that I just sort of highlighted I wanted to read from and talk about. One is we will refrain from referring to those Americans with whom we disagree as enemies or evil, or implying that they’re less than human in any way.

00:15:05:48 – 00:15:07:31
David Martin
Why did you put that in there?

00:15:07:36 – 00:15:32:06
David Holt
You obviously have we have a president, and we have a lot of other national political figures who are using that terminology. And every civil war, every Holocaust, every horrific chapter in human history has started with people using rhetoric like that, calling other people evil. You know, not just like saying you disagree with their positions, but like casting their motives as inherently evil.

00:15:32:08 – 00:15:32:49
David Holt
I mean, if people.

00:15:32:52 – 00:15:40:39
David Martin
And this is on both sides, I mean, you no one side calls the other side Nazis and one side calls the other side, you know, that’s so well.

00:15:40:41 – 00:16:01:52
David Holt
Yeah. So, so like, we got to get away from that. We got to get away from the name calling and the dehumanizing rhetoric, all of this stuff evil or enemies of the Republic or, you know, all this kind of stuff. It’s the positioning for violence. I mean, it’s the it’s the, you know, the framework for justifying something beyond just defeating you in an election.

00:16:01:55 – 00:16:11:10
David Holt
Right? It’s creating the justification for why you should probably, you know, suffer great harm. And and so again, like.

00:16:11:13 – 00:16:24:41
David Martin
And it makes it easier if the other side is evil, if the other side is communist, if the other side is horrible or Nazis or racists, then then, then it’s easier to to inflict violence on them.

00:16:24:44 – 00:16:49:40
David Holt
Yes. Of course. Right. American politics in reality, you know, arguments are still within, like the 30 yard lines. You know, I mean, the idea that someone is evil because they have a different idea of what the marginal tax rate should be. Right. So so we’ve got to get back to where we can disagree agreeably, which, you know, this is obviously a symbol of.

00:16:49:42 – 00:17:04:17
David Martin
The truth matters. This is one of your bullet points. The truth matters, especially in false information contributes to necessary outrage and emotion. So what is the truth and how do we find the truth and how do we agree what the truth is? Mr. mayor.

00:17:04:20 – 00:17:26:06
David Holt
I don’t think the truth is a great mystery. That sound like to say, okay, we know what the truth is. You know, when when the president recently said that the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool had been damaged by vandals, all the rational people in America knew that wasn’t the truth immediately. You know, I mean, especially when there was not even attempt made to provide any evidence of that.

00:17:26:06 – 00:17:44:08
David Holt
And of course, now and this is why the rule of law is so important. You know, now, of course, the truth has come out because it had to because there was there were court proceedings that forced the truth to finally to finally be admitted to by the administration. That’s a silly and superficial example of the truth, right? In the end.

00:17:44:08 – 00:17:45:03
David Holt
But obviously.

00:17:45:05 – 00:17:48:31
David Martin
But the truth can be hard to find, right? David. I mean, you know, you have.

00:17:48:43 – 00:17:54:43
David Holt
It’s I think that I think that’s a problem that people have been conditioned to believe that over the last ten years.

00:17:54:48 – 00:18:12:06
David Martin
The Washington Post, Pinocchios to president the in both the Republicans and Democrats and and what I’m trying to get at is, you know, you and I may have an easier time finding out what the truth is, but there’s a lot of people out there that don’t, you know, that aren’t as news savvy and don’t read as much as as us.

00:18:12:08 – 00:18:41:57
David Holt
And that’s where the that’s where the declaration comes in is like, well, let’s not be contributing to that, to that confusion, okay? Let’s be, you know, active participants in promulgating the truth. Obviously, we can’t control everything, but let’s certainly control what we can control. And, you know, I think I think if I recall correctly, right after that, it says that I will do this, I will correct these misinformation if it’s even if it’s my side of the argument that’s promulgating that.

00:18:41:59 – 00:18:42:31
David Holt
Is that right?

00:18:42:33 – 00:18:46:35
David Martin
Yes. Correct. Yes. That’s you remember what you wrote?

00:18:46:40 – 00:18:54:44
David Holt
Yeah. Yeah, I should remember it. I wrote this is a critical piece. And I said this in a couple of different contexts in this document. Yes, you do, because you got gotta you got.

00:18:54:47 – 00:18:59:03
David Martin
Even when it originates from a group or whoops, position one with which we agree.

00:18:59:08 – 00:19:12:48
David Holt
You cannot accept false information just because it advances your argument. Because, you know, eventually you’re just you’re eroding everything. You’ll pay the price for that. Eventually you have to put truth above your own policy. Victory. Right.

00:19:12:50 – 00:19:21:47
David Martin
So here’s one of my favorites. And this is the second last point. It says not every thought has to be expressed out loud, especially on social media.

00:19:21:50 – 00:19:26:38
David Holt
Yeah, I mean, I usually get when I’ve read this out loud a couple of times, I usually get a chuckle on that one. Right.

00:19:26:40 – 00:19:29:37
David Martin
And I did for the first time I read it, I was like, I laughed.

00:19:29:42 – 00:19:56:50
David Holt
But that’s like, there’s some great truth in that. Of course, it’s been kind of universal and eternal throughout human history, which is, you know, you don’t have to say everything that comes to your mind. Social media, however, has created this like easy outlet for you to express idle thoughts publicly, quickly and obviously to a very large audience. And, you know, we just got to rethink how we use that power.

00:19:56:50 – 00:20:16:20
David Holt
We got to be more careful. And obviously you just don’t always have to respond to crazy people, and you certainly don’t always have to express your own crazy thoughts, you know? And I guess it’s just it’s just a reminder to, to, you know, relearn a lesson again that we probably also learned in kindergarten, which is just like.

00:20:16:25 – 00:20:17:51
David Martin
Thanks, be nice to your neighbor.

00:20:17:54 – 00:20:23:41
David Holt
Yeah. I mean, just like, think about what you’re saying before you say it and and decide whether that’s really in.

00:20:23:44 – 00:20:30:50
David Martin
Is that hard to do, though, Mr. Mayor? I mean, is it hard to ignore the rhetoric? Is it hard to ignore the keyboard warriors?

00:20:30:53 – 00:20:32:46
David Holt
I guess, but I do it.

00:20:32:48 – 00:20:33:41
David Martin
Yeah.

00:20:33:45 – 00:20:56:43
David Holt
I mean, I’m accomplishing it. I mean, you know, I’m on five social media platforms and of course, there’s just absolute nutty responses. And sometimes most of the time they’re anonymous, you know, so you don’t even really know. Is this even really like a person, a human being living in Oklahoma City, or is this like a guy in Moscow right now who’s paid to do this and harass me, you know, to make to so dissention?

00:20:56:46 – 00:21:22:52
David Holt
You know, I don’t know. But in either case, if it’s just ridiculous, I mean, if it’s like, hey, I really think you should pay. Southeast 15th Street. Right? Like, I’m going to reply to that, of course, even if it’s purporting to disagree with something I’ve said, because that’s like a responsible policy conversation. That’s what we do here. But if they’re just like, you’re a moron, you know, or you’re a you’re a rhino or something, no, I’m not going to reply to that stuff.

00:21:23:02 – 00:21:39:46
David Holt
Having said that, obviously there’s a lot of people in positions like mine who who live for that back and forth, and it’s very degrading to the institutions that we serve. And it’s very obviously it’s become very degrading to our whole democracy. You just can’t argue with fools all the time.

00:21:39:46 – 00:22:02:28
David Martin
So I was at the Conference of Mayors recent conference in Long Beach, and there were a couple of sessions about mayor security at about, you know, mayors safety. I know one mayor that we both know was stalked and had a court case come out against her when it was found out what was going on, that that she was stalked and harassed as mayor.

00:22:02:38 – 00:22:06:52
David Martin
Are there other incidents that you’ve been made aware of? And is this a problem nationwide?

00:22:06:54 – 00:22:40:09
David Holt
Yeah, I mean, obviously we’ve had, you know, a variety of assassinations over the last few years, one that just still, I think haunts all elected officials is the murders in Minnesota, all of a state legislator. So, yeah, I mean, I what I have stressed to my fellow mayors is you need to worry about that. You need to work with your police department to ensure that you’re safe, or that you’ve at least done everything you can.

00:22:40:14 – 00:23:03:13
David Holt
You know, the reality is there’s a lot of mental illness in this country. Obviously, there’s a lot of extremism. It’s being fomented at the highest levels of government, and you really kind of have to play defense more than offense. I mean, you you have to have personal security measures in place at your home and at your city hall and potentially even around your person as you move around your community.

00:23:03:15 – 00:23:06:36
David Martin
Especially when you’re really tall like you are. Yeah, yeah.

00:23:06:43 – 00:23:15:57
David Holt
Because you just don’t, you know, you just don’t always know. I mean, the people who like, send you threats are probably actually, statistically the least likely to act on them. Right.

00:23:16:00 – 00:23:17:21
David Martin
And people.

00:23:17:26 – 00:23:40:39
David Holt
The people who actually do these acts usually didn’t send an email in advance. So so you really don’t know what’s out there. And so it’s just I spent, you know, a part of my year. One of my priorities was to highlight this issue. We as a conference, we met with, you know, people in personal security and in executive security to create kind of best practices.

00:23:40:39 – 00:24:00:02
David Holt
We shared those not only with the mayors, but I also sent an email to a whole bunch of police chief city managers and even like some council presidents, basically advocating for the mayor so they didn’t have to do it, because that’s like where the tension comes from sometimes, because there can be a cost associated with some of these measures.

00:24:00:02 – 00:24:21:22
David Holt
But like, what price can you put on your mayor not being harmed? You know, that would really devastate a community regardless of how you feel about the mayor, like really eroding this whole democratic experiment. So, you know, you need to put in the expense. But, you know, sometimes it’s obviously for understandable reasons. It can feel awkward to a mayor to be the advocate for that expense.

00:24:21:22 – 00:24:36:06
David Holt
So we thought, hey, as a conference, we can maybe be the voice for that advocating. And so that was that felt right and good, and I hope it’s made a difference. And it started some conversations maybe in some cities that didn’t have that as friend of mine as they needed to.

00:24:36:09 – 00:24:44:33
David Martin
I can think of a couple of mayors off the top of my head, the mayor of Fresno, the mayor of Tampa, former police chiefs. Do you think that being a police chief is a good background to be a mayor?

00:24:44:35 – 00:25:08:41
David Holt
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think lots of different things obviously can provide a good background. But if you’ve been around government in general and certainly a police chief as a city employee, that’s a great start in terms of experience. And then obviously, you know, all of our city budgets are primarily dedicated to police and fire. I mean, two thirds of our budget goes to police and fire in Oklahoma City.

00:25:08:41 – 00:25:32:47
David Holt
I’m sure that’s similar everywhere else. So certainly an expertise in either of those areas is not a bad not a bad place to start. And both of those mayors, Dyer and Mayor Castor, are remarkable leaders and their communities and in our organization so clearly that whatever, whatever training they received in that career served them well, because they’re great mayors and they’re great.

00:25:32:49 – 00:25:36:44
David Holt
They’re great colleagues. Both of them are on our executive committee for the.

00:25:36:46 – 00:25:53:10
David Martin
I’ve talked to Mayor Castor in Tampa a couple of times, and we talked about infrastructure and plumbing and sewage. And I said, yeah, your background is a police chief. Just know, David, I am learning this on the job every single day. Right. I am now fascinated by sewer lines.

00:25:53:12 – 00:26:07:49
David Holt
Nope. I don’t know any. I don’t know of any mayors of big cities that were city managers. So nobody comes to this job with the expertise necessary to do it. So if you at least know one of the areas like police, that’s a good.

00:26:07:49 – 00:26:20:49
David Martin
Start, a good start. Yeah. So do you feel like the Oklahoma declaration and the 230 mayors that you got to sign off on this? Do you feel like it’s had an impact? Do you think it’s making a difference? And do you think it’s a great example of good government?

00:26:20:56 – 00:26:31:16
David Holt
Definitely the latter. I mean, it’s like the epitome of good government. And that’s why I would recommend people Google Oklahoma City Declaration and read it in its entirety. We’ve given you a little preview today, but yeah.

00:26:31:24 – 00:26:35:19
David Martin
We’ll put a link on our on our web on the show notes. So we’ll we’ll add it there.

00:26:35:21 – 00:27:03:10
David Holt
But as far as the impact. Yeah, I mean I think it’s, it’s kind of cool that hundreds of mayors, you know, read that thought about it, believe that it really kind of captured and articulated what we do here and maybe even helped remind them to stay on that course. Right. You know, like, I mean, I, I wouldn’t necessarily pretend that all 230 mayors throughout their entire political career had stuck to every one of those pieces, so.

00:27:03:13 – 00:27:27:30
David Holt
But but maybe they need they need that nudge, too. And, you know, it’s I’ve done a few interviews about it on a national level, and I think we all have an obligation to just do what we can to promulgate these concepts and these principles and these ideals. And we never know, like how it affects somebody else. And I know that a lot of people have read this thing over the last year.

00:27:27:30 – 00:27:36:03
David Holt
And, you know, you never know what a difference it makes, its ripples across a pond. And if we’re all if we’re all doing these kinds of things, you know, the collective.

00:27:36:18 – 00:27:53:31
David Martin
Or at least mindful of it, or at least think about it, or at least, you know, recognize that, oh, yes, I forgot. I let me stop. Take it. Take a breath. Hey, I there’s so much more I want to get to. I want to ask you a few questions about what’s going on in Oklahoma City. And I want to point out I think this is correct.

00:27:53:33 – 00:27:57:24
David Martin
You’re not actually a full time mayor. You’re the job is not full time, is it?

00:27:57:26 – 00:28:05:35
David Holt
Well, that’s a well, here’s what I here’s what I always describe it. It’s not paid as a that’s the important distinction. So you have.

00:28:05:38 – 00:28:06:57
David Martin
You want to reveal your salary.

00:28:06:59 – 00:28:08:30
David Holt
Oh sure. $24,000.

00:28:08:30 – 00:28:10:52
David Martin
$24,000 to be the mayor of Oklahoma City.

00:28:11:06 – 00:28:11:40
David Holt
Yeah.

00:28:11:44 – 00:28:13:27
David Martin
And you put in about 80 hours a week.

00:28:13:30 – 00:28:34:31
David Holt
Yeah. So so here’s the here’s the strange reality is there’s actually quite a few big cities, especially in this part of the country, that don’t pay their mayors a living wage. Right. And that’s a vestige of some sort of progressive ideal from 1905 or whatever, when a lot of these, you know, city charters were being drafted, it’s obviously not very realistic.

00:28:34:31 – 00:28:57:30
David Holt
And the modern era, when you’ve got $1 billion budget and a 5000 employee base and, you know, it’s a very complex endeavor regardless of your form of government. I mean, even if you have a city manager, I mean, that doesn’t that doesn’t make the job easy. So but it is what it is, because in all of those cases, the salary is generally going to be set in your charter, which is like your constitution, which can only be changed by a vote of the people.

00:28:57:30 – 00:29:17:28
David Holt
And very few mayors are going to spend their political capital trying to get a raise. They knew what they were getting into when they ran. And so you either have to be independently wealthy or retired or just like, decide I’m going to work two full time jobs. And that’s what I’ve done. So I’m actually talking to you from the Oklahoma City University School of Law, where I am the dean.

00:29:17:31 – 00:29:35:03
David Holt
I’m the dean of our law school here in Oklahoma City, and I’ve been doing that for the last three years. I’ve been mayor for eight. So before this I had another different job, and that was working for a family owned investment company here in Oklahoma City. But, you know, the mayor of Dallas is in a law firm. The mayor of Fort Worth runs a hospital.

00:29:35:06 – 00:29:55:29
David Holt
I mean, like, you know, there’s a few of these stories around the country, and it’s kind of always hard for people, even in your own communities throughout their minds around. But it is what it is. I gotta, I gotta live, so I wouldn’t say it’s for everybody. It requires an extreme level of energy. It definitely means you’re not going to be watching many movies or playing many rounds of golf.

00:29:55:33 – 00:29:59:55
David Holt
You are working two full time jobs. You’re working 24 over seven, 365.

00:29:59:55 – 00:30:10:18
David Martin
But it also means you’re not doing this for the money. You’re not doing this for the power. You’re not doing this for the prestige. You’re doing it. You know, all the mayors I’ve talked to is because, you know, you care about the place where you live.

00:30:10:20 – 00:30:34:21
David Holt
Yeah, it’s it’s it’s very rewarding. And it’s funny. I always think, like, what are rich people always doing. They’re running from and, you know, so all these people who have hundreds of millions of dollars still want what I have. Yes. Which is fulfilled of of leaving the world better than I found it. Serving my community, leaving a legacy, having influence over my community’s future direction.

00:30:34:21 – 00:30:49:59
David Holt
And they will spend millions and millions and millions of dollars to try and achieve my $24,000 job, you know? So I always think, like, I guess I’m the real winner in life. I mean, I wouldn’t mind having their money, but seems like even when people get that much money, they still want what I have so.

00:30:50:04 – 00:30:51:28
David Martin
Clearly, clearly.

00:30:51:33 – 00:30:51:56
David Holt
And right.

00:30:52:01 – 00:31:14:53
David Martin
So you have this is your third term as mayor, and you have really gone all in to make Oklahoma City a real sports city. You’ve got a new soccer team coming in, you’ve won the national, the NBA championship with the Oklahoma City Thunder, and you are also hosting some 2028 Olympic events. Tell me, why did you decide to make or go all in as a sports city?

00:31:14:55 – 00:31:16:24
David Martin
How is that benefit the people?

00:31:16:38 – 00:31:41:44
David Holt
I don’t even know that. I would agree that it was a strategy. It was very like over time and it starts alongside our modern Renaissance and Oklahoma City. We started passing tax initiatives in 1993. The brand is known very well locally. It’s called maps, which to answer metropolitan area projects and all. In over 30 years we’ve passed 15 initiatives, some of which are maps, some of which are not.

00:31:41:44 – 00:32:10:54
David Holt
But they all build things and they and the total dollar amount not even adjusted for inflation is $10 billion. So we’ve dropped $10 billion in Oklahoma City over 30 years, across 15 initiatives passed by the voters. Now, a sale is set to set the framework that within that has been several investments, many investments in major sports facilities. You know, our original maps built the arena that our Thunder currently play in and made it possible for us to have an NBA team.

00:32:10:56 – 00:32:32:55
David Holt
Now, another later initiative is currently building $1 billion arena that has made it possible for us to keep the NBA team. We also are building a soccer stadium that’s in maps for. We invested through a bond issue in our softball stadium, which is now going to host the Olympics. We invested through Maps three and a whitewater facility that is now going to host the Olympics.

00:32:32:55 – 00:32:50:35
David Holt
So the list goes on and on. But I wouldn’t say there was ever a moment where a mayor said, like, here’s our sports strategy. But what I have learned is if you’re a big sitting there and you’re doing the job right, you are going to become an amateur sports expert.

00:32:50:40 – 00:32:53:54
David Martin
And what’s your game? What did you what did you play? What’s your what’s your game?

00:32:53:56 – 00:33:15:00
David Holt
Oh, I mean, in life I mean I guess I play, you know, I like playing basketball, but I didn’t play any high school sport like school or anything. But now you become this, you know, any one of us could, like, write for ESPN tomorrow, you know, I mean, like like we are. We are. We have to immerse yourself in the business of sports.

00:33:15:00 – 00:33:41:44
David Holt
Because in America, especially among the top 50 cities, like, like sports is is your calling card. Sports is how you lift the identity and brand of your city. And it’s especially useful if you’re like the 42nd largest market, you know, as we are. Right? Like if you’re kind of on the fringe of that conversation, the NBA team, the Thunder has been how the way that we have lifted ourselves from one tier to the next.

00:33:41:51 – 00:33:57:50
David Martin
But there is an argument that all this money that you spend on sports could be spent in other places. You know, not everybody’s a basketball fan, not everybody’s a soccer fan. You know, you you know, there’s other there’s other priorities certainly in the city. Why is this money well spent by the government?

00:33:57:50 – 00:34:03:02
David Holt
I love this argument. I think you for bringing it up because it is so stupid, because this.

00:34:03:03 – 00:34:03:47
David Martin
Is.

00:34:03:52 – 00:34:04:18
David Holt
Here’s why.

00:34:04:21 – 00:34:07:28
David Martin
It’s huge. Thanks for calling me stupid, Mr. Bear. Appreciate that.

00:34:07:33 – 00:34:24:17
David Holt
No, no, no, you’re just presenting the straw man. I don’t believe that you actually believe it. No, no. Here is what here is. Here is the reality. Because we ran into it a lot when we were running our arena. Vote for the Thunder a couple years ago. They would say, well, that’s $1 billion on an arena. Think of what you could do in homelessness or mental health and all this.

00:34:24:20 – 00:34:56:42
David Holt
And of course, yes. I mean, of course, those things are extremely important. But here’s the funny thing. I cannot find a mid-sized city in America that has chosen not to spend money on all of these sports facilities, and instead has channeled it into this, into this world class social safety net, you know? Okay. Show me this, like, idyllic mid-sized city without any professional sports teams that is taking care of its homeless and its mental health issues at some remarkable level.

00:34:56:42 – 00:35:19:26
David Holt
And here’s why it doesn’t exist. Because the billion dollars doesn’t shift from the arena to those things. It simply goes away. Because if you’re not operating at that level and at that size and scale as a city, you don’t have the resources, you don’t have the economic base to take care of the homeless or the mentally ill. And I and I know this because we run the experiment.

00:35:19:28 – 00:35:45:05
David Holt
We are the case study in Oklahoma City in the 80s and 90s. We weren’t doing a fraction and we weren’t doing anything for social welfare in this city. We were not doing anything for the lower socioeconomic levels in this city. And now we’re doing all this stuff through maps. I mean, my map score is building mental health crisis centers, the a family justice center for Survivors of domestic violence, a civil rights center.

00:35:45:10 – 00:36:04:47
David Holt
It’s building youth centers. It’s building senior centers. Like, we weren’t doing any of those things in the 80s and 90s because we didn’t have two nickels to rub together. We couldn’t do any of that stuff. Okay. And changed. We invested in sports. We became this big city. People are flooding in, they’re bringing their tax dollars, and now we’ve got the money to do more stuff.

00:36:04:47 – 00:36:24:08
David Holt
And yeah, we got to keep maintaining the sports facility so we can keep the golden goose laying eggs. But we are spending those golden eggs on really important things like homelessness and mental illness. So when I said that I’m voting for the arena, I said, I’m going in there. And yeah, it looks like on the ballot that I’m voting for an arena, but I’m voting for homeless services.

00:36:24:08 – 00:36:53:30
David Holt
I’m I’m voting for mental health services, I’m voting for our diversion hub that we’re building in, which is providing services to people engaged with the criminal justice system. And if I don’t vote for this arena, all that other stuff is impossible. And so it’s really like people who want your government to spend money on social welfare or have great intentions, but they have to understand you have to have an economy first, like you have to have like economic activity to produce the tax dollars, to spend the money on those things.

00:36:53:30 – 00:37:10:38
David Holt
And the obligation on us is policymakers is to keep that promise. Like don’t just, oh, when you do get those resources, don’t just spend them on even more sports facilities. I mean, you got to do the things we’re doing here in Oklahoma City, but we’re keeping that promise and we are fulfilling the potential that you have when you invest on sports facilities.

00:37:10:38 – 00:37:29:47
David Holt
It’s a no brainer. And again, show me the mid-sized city that has not gone and wasted all this money on sports and use it on social welfare. It doesn’t exist because the money doesn’t exist. You have to be a big city to have those opportunities and those capabilities, and to be a big city in America, you have to have professional sports teams.

00:37:29:47 – 00:37:30:42
David Holt
It’s just part of the deal.

00:37:30:44 – 00:37:48:07
David Martin
Talking about big cities, you predicted that Oklahoma City is going to have 1 million residents, I think, by 2050. And then you talked about a sense of urgency to improve things like transportation. What does 1 million residents do for a city like Oklahoma City? I guess you’re no longer a mid-size city at that point, right?

00:37:48:10 – 00:38:08:49
David Holt
We are today anywhere. The 21st largest city. So you’re referencing in my my recent state of the city address. Everybody here kind of knows we’ve been growing, but I thought it was sort of stunning when you really presented in graphic form, you know, and you really help people understand the rate of growth here in Oklahoma City and the heights to which we are currently ascending.

00:38:08:49 – 00:38:29:10
David Holt
So by the end of this decade will be at 750,000 residents. And based on the current trends, yeah, I think will be at a million by 2050, probably 2055 at the latest. I mean, there’s only about ten American cities today that have a million people. So many residents of Oklahoma, cities have been here a while and still think of us as like a small town, you know?

00:38:29:12 – 00:38:52:49
David Holt
And so I think it’s really important for them to think, okay, in 25 years, you’ll be the size today of Fort Worth and San Diego and Philadelphia like these, you know, these million plus cities. And you need to get in that frame of mind and also like, think about what are the pressures that will put on us. It offers a lot of great opportunities.

00:38:52:52 – 00:39:11:07
David Holt
I mean, like like we we wouldn’t have an NBA team if we hadn’t grown. We wouldn’t have great restaurants if we hadn’t grown. I mean, like, like growth is validation that you’re doing something right because people want to live there. And it also brings you more amenities and opportunities, but it also brings you more traffic and homelessness and other challenges.

00:39:11:07 – 00:39:35:15
David Holt
And so I want us to celebrate our complements. But my role is also to talk about our challenges and then obviously, you know, provide a path forward to meet those challenges. And so in my state of the city, I talked about this growth and this population growth, and I talked especially about the impact it’s already having on a transportation system and the impact it surely will have on a transportation system over the next 30 years.

00:39:35:15 – 00:39:53:57
David Holt
And what are we going to do about it? And we really need we’ve been planning for years to really amp up our transit system and invest not just in our streets. We need to do that and but also invest in our public transit system, because we really don’t have a transit system built for a city of a million people.

00:39:53:58 – 00:40:18:58
David Holt
And so, however, we’ve been making the we’ve been laying the groundwork over the last ten years. And sometime in the next year in Oklahoma City, we need to make the funding commitment. And that’s going to be a vote of the people, probably across three cities, in this case Oklahoma City and two of our suburbs, Edmond and Norman. And that will set us up to continue this, this work and be ready as this growth continues to accelerate in the next 30 years.

00:40:18:58 – 00:40:34:26
David Martin
That’s a lot. Yeah. All right. Before I let you go, I want to I want to just take a moment. I want to come back and ask you a few questions. Some have asked you before, but we always ask mayors a few questions, and that’s going to come up next.

00:40:34:31 – 00:40:59:51
Narrator
Across America, there is a growing demand for leadership that delivers results over rhetoric. The Good Government Institute brings together proven ideas, principled leaders and real world solutions to strengthen how we govern not by reinventing the system, but by advancing what works. On our flagship podcast, The Good Government Show, we highlight the leaders behind that progress, demonstrating how effective governance begins with listening, respect and a commitment to serve.

00:40:59:54 – 00:41:04:32
Narrator
Visit Good Governance to learn more.

00:41:04:36 – 00:41:22:28
David Martin
Want to hear more about good government? Check out another show I host leading Iowa Good Government in Iowa cities. I host the show with Brad Cavanaugh, mayor of Dubuque, Iowa, and the immediate past president of the Iowa League of Cities. Together, we talked to leaders in Iowa cities. We talk about what works and what good government looks like in Iowa.

00:41:22:31 – 00:41:29:59
David Martin
Join us right here. We’re listening. Now that’s leading Iowa. Good government in Iowa cities.

00:41:30:04 – 00:41:43:03
David Martin
So we’re talking with Mayor David Holt again, the mayor of Oklahoma City. I have a questionnaire. I’m going to ask you some new questions because you already answered the old questions. You’ve been mayor. Now this is your third term. Has your definition of good government changed?

00:41:43:05 – 00:42:08:13
David Holt
No. Not really. I was very blessed to step into a government that had a great track record of effectiveness, and I’d been a part of it. I’d been the mayor’s chief of staff, so I was pretty immersed in it. No, I think it hasn’t changed, but it feels more validated every day because my service is also coincided with probably the greatest dysfunctionality, perhaps, in federal government history.

00:42:08:21 – 00:42:21:37
David Holt
And so, you know, so I’ve probably gotten better at articulating what good government is and really dissecting, you know, what what I think has made government work at the local level and especially in Oklahoma City.

00:42:21:39 – 00:42:24:20
David Martin
What does good government look like in Oklahoma City?

00:42:24:24 – 00:42:45:14
David Holt
We’re all working together. We’re building those coalitions across the 70% of people in the middle. We’re compromising. We’re not just listening to each other, but we’re actually compromising. We’re taking, you know, aspects of the other person’s views, even if we haven’t been convinced because we believe so much in compromise and in having a consensus and a coalition.

00:42:45:14 – 00:43:07:15
David Holt
So that’s the starting point, because that’s what creates the vision that you move forward. And then obviously you got to have serious people doing serious work who aren’t here for, you know, the entertainment purpose of that. We see so much now. They’re not here because they view politics is just a different version of professional wrestling right there, here to do good stuff.

00:43:07:15 – 00:43:25:23
David Holt
And that’s probably on a daily basis, kind of boring, you know. And that’s okay. You know, it’s not supposed to entertain you. And I think really just spend a day in a city government across the United States, and you’ll largely be left with an impression of what good government looks like.

00:43:25:23 – 00:43:42:37
David Martin
So you were you are the past president of the United States Conference of Mayors. You talk to mayors across the country, give us a reason to be hopeful. And and as you, you know, wrapped up your term, do you feel like, you know, the mayors especially are leading the charge in good government across the nation?

00:43:42:39 – 00:43:45:20
David Holt
Well, yes, absolutely. That second part of that question.

00:43:45:22 – 00:43:46:24
David Martin
Because you get stuff done.

00:43:46:27 – 00:44:17:01
David Holt
Yeah. Because it get stuff done. Mayors, our mayors, are the great hope of American politics right now. And to give you more hope to the first part of your question. Places like Oklahoma City and a lot of other places are demonstrating every day that we actually, as Americans, can work together and get things done. Let me I haven’t had the chance to say this yet in our conversation, but Oklahoma City, the county that we’re in, voted for Trump, 4948, in 2020 and 2024, 5050.

00:44:17:06 – 00:44:42:52
David Holt
Okay, right. That’s the country to country also split 5050. And those two mean those two elections. If you look at our demographics, like our ethnic demographics, they’re almost a mirror image of the country. Okay. So we are like politically and demographically a microcosm of America. And yet we vote for mayors. I just got 86% of the vote on my initiatives have gotten 72 and 85% of the vote.

00:44:42:55 – 00:45:13:43
David Holt
We’re somehow agreed across these Partizan lines instead of everything’s 5050, like maybe our presidential votes would would indicate everything is like 70 and 80% in Oklahoma City because we just operate differently. We obviously have different incentive structures, as I described earlier in our electoral systems. And and it shows this is where the hope comes from. It shows that America could do this to people are not as polarized as is portrayed.

00:45:13:53 – 00:45:44:34
David Holt
Our electoral systems are presenting you to polarizing choices and then delivering one of those to Congress, which is now just a collection of polarizing figures instead of where people really are. We just can’t figure out how to speak as a community on a federal level and oftentimes on a state level. But really, Americans in 70% of people in the middle who want to work together and compromise and get things done, and 15% on the extremes of each extreme.

00:45:44:34 – 00:45:54:19
David Holt
And unfortunately, those people dominate national politics right now. But Oklahoma City shows, hey, work. If you listen to the 70% of people in the middle and empower them.

00:45:54:21 – 00:46:11:08
David Martin
Well, that goes back to your declaration. One of your points is it says that everyone participating in the American experiment is motivated by the same thing, a better life for all of us. So you said it. You said it shorter and quicker. The declaration, but well said. What drew you to public service? What made you decide to get into this high paying job?

00:46:11:18 – 00:46:35:21
David Holt
You know, always I mean, I was sophomore class president. I was spirit vice president of the student council. I mean, I’ve been doing this. I was sixth grade student council president. I, I was always from childhood, motivated to be part of the group of people who get to leave a legacy in my community, get to be a part of the group that influences our our direction.

00:46:35:24 – 00:46:52:54
David Holt
I want to do good. I want to leave the world better than I found it. All the right reasons, you know? But I’ve had those motivations forever. And I went to GW in DC and got a political science degree. And, you know, I’ve just always been around this work, I think I think that elected officials should cover lots of different backgrounds.

00:46:52:54 – 00:47:10:53
David Holt
But I do think I have observed that those who come up through staff positions like I did, I used to be the mayor of staff. I worked in the white House, like, you know, do have tend to have a pretty high level of effectiveness because we just know what we’re doing, you know, and we’ve been training for this.

00:47:10:53 – 00:47:17:40
David Holt
And so I love it. I love doing good stuff. And and it’s also you know, it’s not boring. You know, it’s it’s.

00:47:17:45 – 00:47:18:43
David Martin
It’s not boring.

00:47:18:45 – 00:47:28:37
David Holt
It’s diverse. It’s different every day. You can kind of chase your own passions, you know. And so no, I just I just find it. It’s a it’s been a good life.

00:47:28:40 – 00:47:37:22
David Martin
Two more questions for you as an elected official. You know, you’ve you’ve worked at various levels of government. What would you like people to know about government that they just don’t know?

00:47:37:25 – 00:47:58:38
David Holt
Well, they don’t know that there’s obviously the vast majority of government is full of dedicated and serious civil servants. And unfortunately, a lot of the elected officials are giving those governments a bad name right now. But like so, they need to know that there’s so many good people that are kind of going to waste right now due to the lack of leadership that they have at the highest levels.

00:47:58:38 – 00:48:16:39
David Holt
So, I mean, I think it’s understanding I mean, here on the city, we have 5000 city employees. I mean, all of those people are part of a mission. You know, they really all kind of proactively chose to be a part of a good government and to serve their community. And many of them could probably make more money doing something else.

00:48:16:44 – 00:48:38:30
David Holt
But they get a they get a different kind of compensation from this public service career. So that’s one thing that I think gets lost. You view government as these crazy elected officials send it out, mean tweets, and you forget that that’s just a small part of what’s happening here. I don’t know. That’s a great question. What do people not know about the government?

00:48:38:31 – 00:48:57:20
David Holt
Well, here’s something that I feel like comes out more and more. Maybe a friend of mine for me right now in Oklahoma, because we’re going through a governor’s race where one of the candidates basically wants to get rid of all taxation. Right? And it’s like, I don’t like paying taxes. But I feel like what people lose sight of is that you can’t get what you pay for.

00:48:57:32 – 00:49:25:16
David Holt
And I mean, of course, we should be efficient and responsible and all of those things. But like, you cannot just keep cutting taxes forever and expect better results. Far from it. You know? I mean, like we too often in Oklahoma, outside of Oklahoma City, we throw up our hands and we go, I just can’t figure out why we’re 50th in education when we’re spending like, you know, when we’re spending like 50th in the country, you know, and acting like that.

00:49:25:16 – 00:49:49:43
David Holt
Money doesn’t solve some problems. Money absolutely does solve some problems. Sure. Good policy and good stewardship is necessary as well. But you can’t act like money’s not a factor. And too often that’s the only idea anyone ever has running for office these days is to cut taxes. And interestingly, in Oklahoma City, as I said earlier, we passed 15 tax initiatives totaling $10 billion over the last 30 years.

00:49:49:43 – 00:50:06:45
David Holt
And we are the shining light of the state. Like all of the growth is happening here. All of the economic development is happening here. And and people like can’t figure out, you know, probably like I wonder what the secret is there. It’s like you spend money. We did you know, we built things, we invested in things. And yeah, we had to pay.

00:50:06:47 – 00:50:27:46
David Holt
We had to pay more in taxes for that. But it was worth it. We realized the return on our investment. So, you know, I just think we need we need like, you know, I’m this registered Republican who understands that a Republican is not for no government. That’s a libertarian for Republican, okay. It’s for a limited and effective government.

00:50:27:46 – 00:50:29:29
David Holt
And that’s what I think we have in Oklahoma City.

00:50:29:31 – 00:50:41:43
David Martin
So last time I asked you what’s I said when I’m coming to Oklahoma City, where where are we going? Where are you taking me? What are we having? I want to know if that’s changed. And then my other question for you about your city is what is your favorite place in Oklahoma City?

00:50:41:45 – 00:51:16:12
David Holt
Well, when you come, we’re going to we’re going to go to a Thunder game. Of course. Of course. Part of the Oklahoma City experience. We’re gonna go to Oklahoma City National Memorial Great Museum there. That tells the story of the bombing in 1995 and more importantly, Oklahoma City’s response to it. There’s a lot of great museums. Probably two worth mentioning that are particularly unique, though, is the is the Cowboy, the National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum, and the First Americans Museum, which is just more recently opened in the last five years, $200 Million Museum that tells the story of native and Indigenous people.

00:51:16:21 – 00:51:36:42
David Holt
I’ll probably take you a new favorite place downtown that just opened last few months. A lot Parisian. It is a terrific French restaurant that I think is really swiftly made a name for itself here in Oklahoma City. I’m really a fan of that. I’ve just brought some of that International Canoe Federation people there. When we were hosting their World Championships a couple of weeks ago.

00:51:36:42 – 00:51:50:17
David Holt
And of course, they’re all worldly citizens of the world. So they all spoke French to the owner, and I had no idea where he is, that I like the food. And so that would be a great meal to have. All right. I could go on and on and on, but, you know, I’ll stop there.

00:51:50:19 – 00:52:04:33
David Martin
This is a good government show. We always like to bring it back to good government. You spent the last year talking to mayors across the nation. Tell me about a project that you came across in your term as president of the U.S. Conference of Mayors that you looked at and said, wow, that’s good government.

00:52:04:35 – 00:52:07:21
David Holt
Oh, gosh, I don’t know. I mean.

00:52:07:23 – 00:52:08:37
David Martin
I’m putting you on the spot here.

00:52:08:40 – 00:52:31:36
David Holt
Yeah, probably. I love everything that my fellow mayors do, and I follow all of them on social media. I probably noticed less like their substantive projects and proposals more than I noticed, like their style. And so I’ll answer your question with a slight divergence I really love.

00:52:31:41 – 00:52:34:07
David Martin
I love a politician who answers his question his way.

00:52:34:09 – 00:53:00:25
David Holt
Yeah, well, that’s how we all do it, right? I really love the style of Clinton Lucas right now. Like I just think and he’s kind of in his twilight. Quentin Lucas is the mayor of Kansas City, Missouri. Right. And and yeah, I he’s kind of in his twilight months here, I guess. But, you know, he’s like, he’s a perfect embodiment of which many mayors are just really being in sync with your community, really being on the ground uses social media.

00:53:00:25 – 00:53:26:18
David Holt
Well, you know, I think that’s very impressive. I will say a best practice. Maybe this is more to your point that we have adopted in Oklahoma City is the Houston model for dealing with homelessness. And it’s proven it was proven effective there, and it’s proven effective here as well. It’s really the only thing that works. Again, like people have a kind of a silly idea that you just arrest somebody out of homelessness.

00:53:26:21 – 00:53:47:03
David Holt
I’m fully, I believe, in enforcing our laws and protecting our public spaces. But but you have to understand that that serves a limited purpose. It just does that. It just like protects the public space. It does not also make this person not homeless anymore. You’re just moving them around. Right. And Houston showed it’s expensive and you have to really be dedicated to it.

00:53:47:07 – 00:54:08:11
David Holt
But Houston showed how to actually reduce homelessness. And so we’ve adopted that as key to home. That’s one of I’d say probably the last five years. That’s the most impactful best practice we’ve come across in Oklahoma City, which is the Houston model for homelessness, which I would certainly refer people to. Houston has a lower per capita rate of homelessness in Oklahoma City.

00:54:08:13 – 00:54:26:08
David Holt
Obviously, they’re much, much larger. So they got more homeless people than we do. But like the per capita rate is below ours. And I hope that we’ll we’ll get there someday. We have reduced homelessness this year overall, and we’re reduced unsheltered homelessness for the fifth year in a row. So we’re on the right path. But that’s a good, best practice.

00:54:26:11 – 00:54:59:22
David Holt
That certainly reflects good government. Good government. Here’s another definition in Houston and Oklahoma City on the issue of homelessness. Good government is following the data and not chasing emotional responses. Right. Like like the emotional sort of like surface level thing is let’s just go move all those people arrest soulless people. Ticket homeless people. I have found that that is the number one suggestion I get, and it’s emotionally satisfying to the person making the suggestion, but we know it doesn’t work if it worked.

00:54:59:25 – 00:55:04:46
David Holt
People think we don’t do that because we have empathy. We don’t do it because it’s ineffective, it doesn’t do.

00:55:04:46 – 00:55:23:38
David Martin
It, and it causes other problems. So now you got a guy in jail and that’s going to cost money, and you’re not going to fix the problem, and eventually you’re going to turn him out and he’s going to go right back to where he was. So you haven’t really solved any problem except spend more money temporarily. Well, thank you for letting the plane on your final discussion, on your final answer to bring in to bring it back to good government.

00:55:23:38 – 00:55:45:53
David Martin
We appreciate that. David Holt, you are the mayor of Oklahoma City, the past president of the US Conference of Mayors and the author of the Oklahoma City Declaration, you know, aimed at turning the rhetoric down and turning the volume down and, you know, increasing the idea that good government and democracy can work for all of us if we just take a breath and think about it.

00:55:45:56 – 00:55:49:39
David Martin
So thanks for that, David. Always a pleasure talking to you. We’ll see you again.

00:55:49:41 – 00:55:50:17
David Holt
You too. David.

00:55:50:17 – 00:55:55:43
David Martin
Thank you. Thank you.

00:55:55:48 – 00:56:17:15
David Martin
The Good Government Institute has a new partner, the Charles F Kettering Foundation. I really like their podcast to context, and I bet you will too. They have a new series called Democracy Under Construction. The show is hosted by historian Alex Lovett, and he looks back at the first 250 years of U.S. history. Alex digs into the moments that have pushed us towards an inclusive democracy.

00:56:17:18 – 00:56:25:34
David Martin
You can find it where you’re listening right now, or visit Kettering and give them a follow.

00:56:25:39 – 00:56:45:38
David Martin
What if Lincoln hadn’t been shot? What if World War One hadn’t happened? Jim Ludlow. Good Government Show executive producer, explores both those ideas in two books in Lincoln Beyond the Bullet, he imagines that Lincoln lives and royal cousins. He imagines what would have happened if three kings, all cousins, hadn’t blundered their way into war. What if. Think about it.

00:56:45:40 – 00:56:52:25
David Martin
Go to Good Govt Institute and order a copy.

00:56:52:30 – 00:57:10:29
David Martin
Think about it. The mayor of Oklahoma City, a city of some 700,000 people. The state capital, the eighth largest city in the southern U.S. and being mayor is a part time job and it pays $24,000 a year. Clearly, Mayor David Holt is not in it for the money. He’s in it because for him, like for many mayors, it’s their calling.

00:57:10:34 – 00:57:28:18
David Martin
Mayors like Mayor Holt are your neighbors, and they really are working overtime to make their cities better. Truth matters. This is one of the declaration points. Another point David Holt makes is even when someone sounds off and you might agree with online premise, it doesn’t mean you should embrace political rhetoric. Again, check out the link on our show notes.

00:57:28:21 – 00:57:44:08
David Martin
Give it a read. There’s good thoughts in there for all of us, not just for the mayors. Well, that’s our show. Thanks for listening. Please like us and shares with your friends and review us right here where you’re listening. And check out our website. Good government show for extras like that declaration. Help us keep telling stories of good government and action everywhere.

00:57:44:10 – 00:57:52:26
David Martin
Join us again for another episode right here. I’m Dave Martin and this is the Good Government show.

00:57:52:31 – 00:58:30:00
David Martin
The Good Government Show is produced by the Good Government Institute, a nonprofit organization promoting civic engagement and civic education. All donations to the show help promote trust in government. You can donate at Good Govt Institute. That’s good govt institute. Executive producers are Jim Ludlow, Dave Martin that’s me and David Snyder. Jason Stershic is our editor and producer. Join us again to hear good stories about our government right here on The Good Government Show.

00:58:30:05 – 00:58:33:10
Narrator
This podcast is part of the democracy Group.

**This transcription was created using digital tools and has not been edited by a live person. We apologize for any discrepancies or errors.