Good Government in the Cemetery

David Martin: This is the good government show.

Casey Cep: The pitch was did I want to come along and, you know, find a bureaucrat to fall in love with. My chapter, this book is about an extraordinary public servant at a.

Obviously, public servants have to balance a tremendous number of things. And one of those is, you know, the privacy of the people they serve and the professionalism of their appointments. And so a lot of times, people doing good work in government can’t talk about it. One way we can think about who we are as a country, and what matters is to be in these spaces where service and courage and sacrifice are self-evident.

Even in my enthusiasm for government, I think we should always be asking questions about why we do things. The podcast is full of them. I think it’s great to lift up people doing good work. It’s really it’s countercultural, you know, all we do is complain and criticize. And this is a wonderful program.

David Martin: There’s a new book out. It’s called Who Is Government by Michael Lewis. When I heard about this, I thought, this is a book we need to talk about. Welcome to the Good Government show. I’m Dave Martin. On this episode, we’re going to talk to one of the writers of Who is government. My guest is Casey Cep. She wrote one of seven chapters in the book.

Her chapter is called The Sentinel. She profiles Ronald Walters, who’s the acting undersecretary for Memorial affairs. His department is the National Cemetery Administration, which is part of the Department of Veterans Affairs. He’s in charge of all the national cemeteries around the country, from Arlington to one of the 156 local cemeteries for veterans and their families. When we talk about public service, we’re talking about people like Ron Walters.

He’s worked in government his entire professional career, most of it at the VA. He runs an organization that gets some of the highest rankings of customer service, higher than some of the most popular companies in America. And he does it for all of us in the U.S government. We talk about the work Ron Walters does and the way he goes really above and beyond what his mission is, when he could just make sure the cemeteries are clean and the barriers take place, he does so much more.

He’s made it his mission to expand the work he and his staff do on a $2 billion a year budget, which is an extremely modest budget by several government standards. As you’ll hear, he’s created job programs for veterans to work at the administration. He’s created learning programs for students, and he keeps his eye on small details, like, are all the headstones lined up correctly?

This is the kind of work people in public service do. They go above and beyond the mission for no extra pay and no extra notoriety, just because they feel it’s important? That’s good government. Casey CEP is a writer with New Yorker magazine and one of seven writers for the new book, Who Is Government? That’s coming up next.

Term. Yeah. Isn’t the future of government. It’s happening now. Like polymorphic power. Your government with AI, like other agencies, are already doing polymorphic helps you power resident for service to streamline requests while reducing staff workloads and speeding up how your citizens get answers. It’s a secure system that’s built for government. You’ll see immediate results with more informed citizens.

Want to see how I can help you? Power is service. First government visit polymorphic.com. That’s poly moi Icom.

Welcome to the Good Government show. I’m very happy to have with me Casey Kapp, who is a writer for The New Yorker and most importantly, one of seven writers on a new book called Who Is Government? The Untold Stories of Public Service, edited by Michael Lewis. Welcome to the show.

Casey Cep: Thanks so much, David, and honor to talk with you.

David Martin: Thank you. So, first of all, you are a writer, a New Yorker. They’re celebrating their 100th year. A friend of mine had a great comment about The New Yorker. I started getting a New Yorker, and now I don’t read anything else. It’s a great magazine. How long have you been there? And what’s special are you adding to the 100th year?

Casey Cep: Oh my gosh, I mean, not nearly enough. I’ve been there five years. So first of all, a baby in the eyes of the New Yorker. You know, people really do come and stay for decades at a time there. I would.

David Martin: Say a New Yorker if you were there.

Casey Cep: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, my my hope is to never leave. I write a lot about religion and, literature and kind of Americana is my beat. So, it’s it’s a lot of fun, and it’s taken me all around the country and it just, you know, it feels like in this age where journalism is really imperiled, it is a good home for a writer.

You know, you can take your time and you can get to know a story and you can really just delight in not not just the mechanics of the work, but but in style and in, you know, the actual beauty of a story.

David Martin: So there are probably some listeners who don’t read The New Yorker regularly, or even the cartoons, which is the best part of the magazine. Let’s be honest. It’s, so the caption contest in the back, first thing I look at tell people why they should read The New Yorker.

Casey Cep: Oh, you know, The New Yorker is old school. It’s longform journalism. You know, if you try and keep up with the day to day of the news these days, there’s so much of it and it’s so relentless and it changes. But I think the value The New Yorker brings is what it’s always brought, which is the long, the deep, the thoughtful, the considered.

And I, I like to think the part of the New Yorker I contribute to is also the quirky, you know, we can get busy with, you know, the, the, the top line news of the day or the front page stories, which are urgent and important. But The New Yorker still has time for the strange and the quirky and, you know, I said Americana, but just the parts of this country or the parts of the world that, you can really delight in and that feel special and strange and precious.

So there’s room for those stories, too. But, you know, there’s the 10,000 word feature that’s actually going to tell you everything you need to know about nominees and the Trump administration and the 10,000 word feature on, you know, the axolotl or like the random reptile people are doing new, you know, an important and urgent scientific studies on or, you know, the bookstore in the Mississippi Delta that’s been there for 50 years.

So, it’s a good mix of stories. And, and I think whatever else we offer in a given week, it’s tremendously good writing. I admire my colleagues a great deal, and there’s some of the best stylists and, journalists in the business.

David Martin: Well, I hope it goes for another hundred years. And I’m glad to see there’s still a New Yorker out there, as lots of magazines are shrinking. The The New Yorker in print is still the best way to go. So thanks for that. Thanks for that. But we are here to talk about a book that you were one of seven writers on, who is government?

Tell me how this book came to be.

Casey Cep: Yeah, this is a really fun project. Talk about great journalist Michael Lewis. Is one of this country’s best storytellers. And, a while back, he, emailed me and then got on the phone and said, you know, do you want to be part of this project? And I don’t even think I knew who the other writers were.

You know, if Michael had asked me to, like.

David Martin: Go and Michael Lewis, who wrote The Big Short, he wrote Moneyball, among others, kind of a prolific writer that really takes an in-depth look at a topic.

Casey Cep: Yeah. And a few years ago, he wrote The Fifth Risk, about the first Trump administration. And the pitch here was, you know, he had written that book about the federal bureaucracy, and he’d gone into Commerce and the Department of Agriculture and looked around. But he had not really gotten to write much about the people who worked in these agencies.

And the pitch was, did I want to come along and, you know, find a bureaucrat to fall in love with? And I said yes right away. And my chapter, this book is about, an extraordinary public servant at V.A. but some of the other writers, Dave Eggers, went to NASA’s Jet Propulsion Lab. Sarah Allen, tremendously funny writer, spent some time at the National Archives.

Camille Bell, a comedian and prolific thinker, spent some time at the Department of Justice with the Antitrust Division. So it’s an eclectic group of writers going around the government looking at, public servants and in a number of agencies and departments.

David Martin: Well, this is the good government show. We like to think of ourselves as the voice of public service. And you, your mission was to find someone in public service that you would fall in love with. How did you find your topic? Which is, Ron Walters of the National Cemetery Administration. How did you find this guy?

Casey Cep: Yeah, I mean, Michael, in addition to, being so sweet to ask me to take part, actually also had a cutting room floor story. It was one he tried to tell in the highest risk, but he struggled to get in. And, I think probably something, you know, your audience is aware of, obviously, public servants have to balance a tremendous number of things.

And one of those is, you know, the privacy of the people they serve and the professionalism of their appointments. And so a lot of times, people doing good work in government can’t talk about it. And Ron Walters turns out to be one of these people. Michael had tried to write about him in The Fifth Risk, but VA wouldn’t let him in the door.

So I said, all right, I’ll take that challenge. This guy sounds great. Ron runs this very special part of the VA that buries all of our military veterans, 140,000 people every year, veterans and their families, and tends to the perpetual memory of 4 million other veterans. But the interesting thing about Ron is not just the work he does, but how well he does it.

So this was this good government story waiting to get out, which is like, this guy has the highest customer service ratings of any public or private institution in the country, literally. Right. The University of Michigan ranks this stuff, and they do these surveys. And do they.

David Martin: Have more than Costco? I think I read.

Casey Cep: Literally, you know, think of your favorite corporation or company. And, Ron, I guarantee you these ratings are higher for this part of the VA. You know, it won’t surprise you. People like like the NCAA better than, you know, Facebook or Amazon, maybe. But, you know, better than chick fil A, better than any of these popular companies.

And seven, seven surveys running. And Ron and his team had been the top of that. And, you know, most government agencies and the federal government, the rankings are like 68 on the 100 point scale. Okay. And Ron and the NCAA, there are 97. So just tremendous, tremendous satisfaction. And, you know, for me, it was a fun management story.

How’s this guy do it? You know, how how are they managing their people and how are they meeting customer needs and reforming things within within their within their agency to have these incredibly high scores? So it’s partly a profile of Ron, partly a management story of, how can you do this work. Well, and how do you service?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Martin: Who doesn’t have to work that hard if he doesn’t want to? But he does.

Casey Cep: I think that’s really the special story here. You know, far beyond the stereotype. You know, a lot of people could just go to work and it would be enough to to bury these folks or have, you know, good, good, good funerals or to keep the ground’s kind of clean. You know, this guy year after year, he’s a data nut.

So he’s always collecting data from every, every national cemetery, and he’s sending out a team to scrutinize, you know, the height of the grass, the, angle of the headstones, you know, are the trash cans empty? Are the bathrooms clean? Are the flags crisp and flying when they when where they should be? And he’s just relentless in trying to find out how they can do it better and who’s doing it well.

And you know which employees are trained well, or what kind of remedial training makes things better. And just top to bottom, you know, he brings just this energy for excellence that I don’t think people. So I wish more people associated with government, but they don’t. So that was one of the appealing things about Ron’s story. It was a chance to say, like, you think you know how bureaucracy works and you think you know the stereotype of the bureaucrat, but look at this guy.

You know he is doing it better than the private sector. He is. He is meeting customer needs. He is obsessed with the customer experience in a way we just unfortunately don’t associate with public service.

David Martin: You said in your article that, so you originally wrote an article, I guess, in the Washington Post called The Sentinel, correct?

Casey Cep: Yeah, these all started with the post.

David Martin: And in that article you say, you quote Walters. I guess he’s saying, the National Cemetery Administration is the best kept secret in federal government.

Casey Cep: Yeah.

David Martin: Do you still think that’s true?

Casey Cep: Do I think it’s true? I mean, I you know, I think the government I think a really wonderful thing is the government is full of secrets. You know, a lot of people whose urgent needs are being met by the federal government don’t talk about it, or they don’t even realize it’s the federal government. You know, it’s federal dollars distributed through, agencies or, you know, community grants or something.

And we don’t even know. I mean, these things, these things are beautiful and make our country great and, you know, transform our everyday lives. And sometimes you know who it is, and sometimes you know where the funding is coming from. But, no, I think unfortunately for Ron, the secret’s out. You know, there’s the post article me and see if he did hear from people and, you know, military families, which is obviously he cares tremendously about their core constituency.

But also from, you know, he just he got a lot of feedback from this and he deserves it. And I think appropriately, people around the country are wondering how to improve their organizations. And they’re looking to people like Ron for advice, which I think is great. You know, it’s it’s a story I wrote, but it’s Ron’s story and it’s he’s he’s been with VA for 40 years.

It’s four decades of great government service. And, you know, he has a lot to teach. And, and he and his colleagues have, a tremendous example that I really do think a lot of teams could look at and learn from, regardless of what, whatever kind of work they do.

David Martin: You quote someone who was a who worked with him at VA and said to two things I wanted to bring out, quote, no one ever knows about the good you do. And then later on, this woman goes on to say, you know, look at the alternative jobs you could have had and how much you could have made in the private sector.

Tell me about, you know, that in relation directly to Ron. But did you find that in, you know, in the book, did you find that with other people as well?

Casey Cep: Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, you’re podcast is, is a really welcome service because you’ve been doing this for three years now. You know, it’s probably not hard to look around and find folks to profile and work to lift up. But, you know, the there just really perverse incentives, you know, when you do something badly and you work for the government.

You know, I say this as a member of the the, quote, media, you know, we look for fraud. We look for ways, we look for mistakes. We are ruthless in, in publicizing those. But, you know, people get a little bashful. They don’t want to seem like PR, so the media doesn’t often tell good stories about government.

And within the government, you know, they don’t have dollars to promote themselves, character illogically. They’re averse to praise or publicity. You know, if Ron wanted to be famous, he would be in the private sector. He’d have written a book, he’d have done a Ted talk. So I think his colleague who was who was talking about kind of public service overall is exactly right.

And that’s one of the reasons we find ourselves in the current predicament. Government is doing good work. But, people are not talking about it. They’re not taking credit. Again, character illogically, you know, these are people who really are selfless and they’re team oriented. So they never raise their hand. They never go on TV, they never write a letter to the editor saying, hey, we did that.

You know, so there’s there’s all kinds of good work they’re not getting credit for. And I just think in general, you know, that colleague of Ron’s was right, that there is a kind of misunderstanding the public has and a really entrenched stereotype that, pernicious actors have put forward and insisted on. And it’s very, very hard to break through.

And, you know, I think we’re seeing it right now, as these agencies are gutted as these public servants are, fired or kind of bullied into retirement. I think everyday life in this country is going to change tremendously because we have taken for granted, part of what makes this country great. And over and over again, you see it, you know, you didn’t know you needed as many Social Security clerks as you do.

And now you wait two extra hours on the phone, or the IRS agents who are just being bullied. You know, we profile an IRS agent in the book, Geraldine Brooks, a novelist, writes about this incredibly talented, member of the cybercrime task force and dollar for dollar. He’s like one of the best investments the government makes. He’s doing tremendous good work around, you know, child sex trafficking around the Silk Road and cybercrime.

And, you know, again, talk about someone who could just be making millions in the private sector. He’d be, you know, like getting his stock options and like moving to Turks and Caicos right now, but instead he works for the IRS. And what do we do? We got his team. You know, he’s got half as many colleagues to assist him in those efforts.

So I think the book is full of really great people whose stories should be better known, whose stories are inspirational. But they’re also, you know, they’re not anomalous. You know, these these are representatives, and I think we’re very lucky in this country. And we should probably be, not taking these people for granted. And when you have a good experience, you should speak up about it.

And when you’re doing good work, you shouldn’t be bashful about, taking credit. And, you know, it’s really the this book is written by journalists, but, you know, you could go into any community in this country and Americans there are, you know, benefiting from from federal dollars in ways they know and don’t know. So I hope, I hope the book becomes this occasion to talk more about it.

And that podcast, like yours, kind of proliferate and that people aren’t bashful about saying what they admire about government or talking about the work they do and where the funding goes.

David Martin: I’m going to read a quote from your book, because this was, from the book that was in the article that I read. The best thing in the world is when no one can remember whose idea it was. Then you know, you succeeded, because the greatest thing that can happen is no one can remember who did it or how it was done.

Everyone has taken a piece of the idea. It has become institutionalized. You’re laughing.

Casey Cep: I’m laughing because that’s wrong. And that’s why I love him. You know, Ron Walters, just truly selfless, you know, team oriented, doesn’t want.

David Martin: Credit, sums up most of the work of most of the people that are in government, does it not?

Casey Cep: Absolutely. And, you know, it’s a NASA matter. Our current culture, you know, it’s it’s truly just we live in a time where people want to put their name on everything, and they want to be branded and it’s, you know, it’s it’s a culture saturated with advertising and self-promotion. And again.

David Martin: It’s really buildings.

Casey Cep: Everywhere, putting your name on buildings, you know, putting your name on meme coins, putting your name on everything. And it’s just, it’s it’s not compatible with the kind of deep, deep aspirations of public service where it is about the country, not about you. It is about higher ideals, not, you know, self-dealing or, corrupt practices. And so, again, but part of what’s beautiful about people like Ron is, is he says a quote like that, and he means that he spent his whole life making sure other people get credit and trying to say it into the background of a room and trying to lift up teams.

And that is beautiful. And I would I would actually never want to change him, but I think that’s why, you know, if you are a military family who had this beautiful, moving experience of your loved one being buried in a national cemetery and the and the ceremony bringing you to tears, and the ceremony changing people in your family.

You have to speak up because these people won’t. And if you know, again, you just you look around these agencies, if you are someone who has a cooperative extension agent who’s drawn your nutrient management plan or runs the forage club, you have to speak up. You know, you have to say the good work. These people are doing.

Or if your nephew, you know, works in the Antitrust division and you’re proud of him, say so. You know, you have to start talking about the things that are moving and, wonderful about government, local and federal. Because I just think we’ve been even the champions of government, you know, the happy taxpayer, the, contented liberal who believes in government.

We’ve just been a little too bashful about talking about it and really owning it. And on the one hand, maybe you have to say, well, it’s complicated. I wish x, Y, and Z could be better, but, we’re not going to forfeit the right to say what’s good about government. You know, even if we believe in marginal improvements or, reform or modernization, that doesn’t mean we can’t as a bedrock talk about the things that matter, whether it’s, you know, Treasury, justice, homeland security, this is important work.

And we have to stop being embarrassed to talk about it and to sing its praises.

David Martin: This is a good government show. And we talk about good government projects that work and it would certainly appeared that the National Cemetery Administration works and works. Well, a little history here, I guess. The the National, Cemetery Administration got started essentially during and after the Civil War. The Gettysburg Address was actually, as I understand it, a speech that, established, the Gettysburg Cemetery.

It looks like from this article, he’s done some kind of amazing work. He’s got a training center that, gets people to, you know, get on the same page and do it all uniformly, correctly. Their, Veterans legacy program, that takes veterans and brings them into working at the, different cemeteries. Not all of them.

There’s you have succeeded, but many have helps homeless veterans, you know, and he has scholarships that bring kids into the cemeteries to help tell stories. What am I missing? What else is this? Is this, you know, good government administration pulling off?

Casey Cep: Yeah. I mean, that’s it. I mean, the customer service ratings are like kind of where I came into this story, but it’s true. You meet Ron and he is not content to do their core mission. Well. He’s always looking to expand the mission. And you’re right. You know, the the digital programs he started where you can be anywhere in the country and zoom in on a veteran’s grave in any national cemetery, and you can contribute stories or artifacts or, archival materials, photographs, audio recordings.

So he’s building out the kind of historical legacy, you know, he’s honoring the deep commitment we make to veterans that we will remember their service and tell their stories. Ron’s doing that in new and innovative ways. And you’re right, one of the things he’s incredibly proud of is that Homeless Veterans Employment Program, the NCA is about 65% staffed by veterans.

So he’s finding ways to bring people into productive employment and to connect them with their own service. So that was beautiful to get to talk to some of the homeless veterans who are now employed. And then on top of it, I think Ron is aware of, you know, again, this is this is kind of deeply good government.

He understands the country is changing and we are moving into a very, very minority military country. So, you know, 1% of the country serves in the military. And Ron feels it’s urgent that we connect the other 99% with the one. So part of the way he’s done that is with these grants to get scouting troops and college courses and high school classes into the cemeteries, to research the veterans, to create, you know, history projects and community service projects.

Just to bring people in because he really does feel like we have a perpetual commitment. And it’s not just at Gettysburg, you know, it does go back to the Civil War, but it goes back further to the revolutionary War. And one way we can think about who we are as a country and what matters is to be in these spaces where service and courage and sacrifice are self-evident.

And, to let them, you know, to let these national cemeteries be an arena for moral contemplation. And, democratic conversations. And I think that’s another way, you know, talk about good government. It would be good government to just do the burials. Well, but here’s Ron saying, what do these burials mean? And how can they they make us into a better country.

So top to bottom. Yeah. He’s just doing an innovative and interesting work. And one of his colleagues said to me, you know, the NCA basically still runs on fax machines. And here’s Ron, you know, just actually creating, you know, like the Facebook of, of, cemeteries. You know, he was just an innovative guy. And he manages to do it with no funding practically.

And you know, little support. So I think it is an inspirational story. Whatever your little niches in the government, you know, what are your working for a small town or a big federal agency? There’s always ways to improve and expand. And I think that’s what’s inspiring about Ron. He’s done it over and over again over those 40 years.

He is not complacent. He’s not content with good, good service. He wants great service. And that is an inspiration. Whether you’re part of a team or leading one, you know, there’s just always room to be a little better. And he’s a data nut, so he’s always obsessed with, you know, exactly how well they’re doing and how exact better they could be doing.

So that was inspirational for me. You know, like the loosey goosey writer who comes in and just as, you know, kind of going off vibes, and here’s Ron being like, no lentils measure how many minutes this takes, how many days this takes how many weeks. This is take. And, you know, trying to just, make it better, make it bigger, make it better, make it faster.

So that that to me is truly a good government and an inspiration for for anyone, whatever they do.

David Martin: We have a current administration that is looking to gut many parts of the federal government. You know, you sort of said, at one point, you know, they could just bury everybody and do it nicely and be done. You know, all the extra work. I mean, is this really money well spent?

Casey Cep: You know, that is a wonderful question. And even in my enthusiasm for government, I think we should always be asking questions about why we do things. And in this case, you know, there’s a historical precedent. But, one possibility would just be to say, here’s your death benefit. You know, you go in a private cemetery and this is we give you some money to contribute to the burial, and we’re done.

And I think it is obvious, you know, to most of us, that would be the kind of subsistence government, you know, we do the minimum. And I don’t think any of us want to live in a country that’s subsistence. You know, we want more and we want meaningful. And I think the NCAA is such a beautiful demonstration of what that can mean to have these cemeteries, you know, means World War Two has never forgotten.

The Civil War is never forgotten, that we create spaces that are monuments to peace. And, you know, they are locations where important and sober conversations and frankly, you know, a political conversations can happen. I love Ron suddenly, you know, there’s no Democratic or Republican way to bury a veteran. We just we bury the veterans and we do it well.

I think that’s completely anomalous in this time and space. And so it would be, you know, it would be possible to just have the privatized, you know, okay, here’s your death benefit. Go do it. But the NCAA, just over and over again, shows why it is a good investment and why it is important, to remember our history and to honor these people and to do more than the minimum.

So I think, you know, it is an argument from excellence, not just from history. And I think anyone who’s attended one of these ceremonies realizes, it’s such a good use of taxpayer dollars. It is both the, the fidelity we have with military families and the faith that we have and the ongoing ness of the country that we can afford to do this, that, that we do have money to spend in these ways to maintain these cemeteries.

And on top of that, you know, I think it really does create a space where we can change and, we can, you know, pursue the higher ideals that maybe the everydayness of a, you know, a legislative chamber is a really, really fractious and appropriately divisive space. We argue, we debate, we, you know, come out with this, maybe even the disagreement is always settle on.

But but hopefully in these national cemeteries, they really are just, you know, places where deep consideration and contemplation can happen. And, you know, it’s it’s truly it’s an extraordinary thing. We are the only country in the history of civilization that has repatriated our dead in this way. You know, during the civil War, to drag them from remote battlefields during World War two.

We are still locating veterans from abroad, from World War two, Korea, Vietnam. We are bringing them home. You know, every other week there’s a story, there’s a part of the Defense Department talk about taxpayer dollars. We could leave these people buried. You know, we could leave them in foreign countries, but we bring them home and we bring together their nearest living relatives, and we send them to their communities.

And we say the sacrifice mattered. These lives mattered. And again, I don’t know that, you know, if you asked AI to come up with the best use of taxpayer dollars, probably the NCAA would not be on the top of that.

David Martin: Probably not.

Casey Cep: But we would be a lesser country without it. So I think it’s a it’s a great example of, why do the minimum we would not be a great nation if all we ever did was the minimum. Why not try and do the maximum?

David Martin: So coming up, we’re going to get your real philosophy on government for what you’ve learned for this book. And we’re going to get to that in just a minute.

Once you wrap up this episode of The Good Government Show, give a listen to our friends over at Good News for lefties. This daily podcast highlights news stories that show there’s more good news out there. Other people in government are really trying to do the right thing. That’s good news for lefties. Listen, we’re listening now.

So we have a questionnaire that I usually ask every elected leader at people in government. And you’re the first person we’ve talked to who’s actually not in government. So I have a I have a bridge our questionnaire and yeah geared it directly for you. All right. Here we go. That was the easy part right.

Casey Cep: All right a complete interloper. Let me just say I’m sorry to all your guests who’ve actually, you know, like, earned the public trust and been elected. I am a complete interloper here, but, All right, go ahead.

David Martin: Well, we have. You said you spent some time, and you’ve you’ve studied this and you come out with a book. So we’re going to get right to it from what you’ve learned, what is good government say, I told you this was easy.

Casey Cep: I’m just hoping my high school civics teacher is and isn’t going to log on and listen to this. Oh, I hope so. Good government. I mean, I think the bedrock definition is, meets the needs of the people it serves. And that sounds probably like elastic, but I think that is, you know, this country has evolved and changed.

And if you had a fixed notion of good government, you know, it was this it was that, it would have died out decades or centuries ago. So I think an elastic notion of meets the needs of the people it serves is, is a pretty good definition of government, and it’s why we ought to be proud of ours.

You look around the world and there are governments that don’t, you know, meet the needs of their people. They’re corrupt. They’re inadequate, they’re deleterious. And ours, for all of its flaws, really does try and meet the needs of its people.

David Martin: If people aren’t getting good government, if they don’t like the government that they’re seeing, be it, you know, locally or in their state or nationally, what should they do?

Casey Cep: This is so easy. You know, it’s funny. You know, I gave up complaining for lent. I was that’s like, I got I who I mean, that’s why we we all need forgiveness. But, you know, it’s it’s not enough to complain. You do nothing if all you do is complain. You have to get active, right? You have to.

You have to get involved. You have to volunteer. You have to talk to your elected officials. And frankly, if you can’t get the satisfaction you want or the services you think your community needs, then you have to run. You know, you cannot sit on the sidelines. And, I think that’s another way in which our culture is a little sick.

You know, people just really do want to tear down and criticize. And it is very hard to be a leader in this day and age, especially in the public sector. So I would just beg people who are discontented to get involved.

David Martin: All right, get involved. Other than, you’re the subject of your of your article, The Sentinel and, the book, Ron Walters of the National Cemetery Administration. Who inspires you in public service? Who inspires you in government?

Casey Cep: That is a great question. And, you know, there are all sorts of historical examples, like, I’m a real creature of history. And, you know, you talked about Lincoln and it sounds so, hackneyed, but over the last couple of years I’ve been trying to read Lincoln’s speeches. Not I mean, the Gettysburg Addresses is particularly famous one, but, such, you know, an autodidact and a self-taught person, and he took all those talents and really did devote a lot of time to talking to his fellow citizens.

So, you know, it’s not enough to save the country, but I just think he was someone who was very, very good at articulating a vision of, the country and defending it and explaining it. So I’m incredibly inspired by Lincoln. There’s a quote at the beginning of our book, Who is government from JFK? So, you know, I think at the level of kind of national service, there are iconic presidents.

I had the chance a few years ago to tour Hyde Park. And, you know, you go and you look at what FDR did and again, it sounds trite and people are embarrassed to say things like this, but it’s so moving. The country we live in is is a result of the New Deal and the ambition and the boldness and the courage of, you know, federal workers who, did extraordinary things in a government that tried to be bigger and better.

But, you know, locally, I think there are some, I worked one summer for a little law firm in the town. I went to high school. I’m from the Eastern Shore of Maryland, so not too far from D.C., but it felt like light years, kind of culturally. But I worked for, a little law firm, and they had a ton of municipal clients.

So they represented these small towns and, you know, over and over again, I met members of town councils and, you know, county councils who were trying to negotiate complex annexation agreements to like, you know, figure out how to do development responsibly or people on the zoning commission who were really earnestly trying to understand environmental impact research. And, you know, I, I just feel like locally, there are so many people who, around the edges of some other completely unrelated career, you know, are spending dozens of hours every month, like coming up with the new zoning plan or the new wastewater treatment plan and, you know, or the Board of Education.

I know some people who have just spent years trying to improve public education, and it’s thankless work. And it inspires me because it really is just people who want, you know, their neighbors to have a better life. So I think, you know, you look around and high and low, there really are people. Again, it’s a great gift to this country.

We should stop talking as if government is corrupt. And if, as if, you know, public service is, you know, not worth our time. These are tremendously earnest and, you know, sincere people. And I find that inspiring, and I just, I actually I mean, there’s a woman I helped, I helped with her campaign here on the Eastern Shore, Emily Jackson, who’s on the board of education and, God bless her.

You know, her kids would be fine if she never served on the board of Ed, but, she cares about kids who aren’t as well resourced as hers and who aren’t as blessed. And, you know, I watched her deal with a lot of abuse. And, you know, the things people say on Facebook about her and, you know, just the terrible assumptions about her motives and, you know, about the inefficiency of the board.

And, she’s there every month to hear a public comment, and she comes home every week to read the budgets and works with the superintendent and, so that’s one local person. But, yeah, I mean, I don’t know, people.

David Martin: I ask for billions of dollars a year. I’m sure she’s paid. Right. I of.

Casey Cep: Course she’s. Yeah, exactly.

David Martin: Swinging cash.

Casey Cep: Yeah. Anyway, the podcast is full of them. I think it’s great to lift up people doing good work. It’s really, it’s it’s countercultural. You know, all we do is complain and criticize. And this is a wonderful program.

David Martin: What should people who aren’t in government know about government now usually ask that of an elected leader. But you’ve been studying this. I mean, in the book there’s, comments and stories from people at the Department of Labor, at Veterans Affairs, at the IRS. We we had somebody from the IRS on. They were great. From archives, and from the Food and Drug Administration.

And what should people know about what’s going on in government?

Casey Cep: Everything. I mean, my goodness, I feel like I, you know, follow the news and, and understand things. But, I learned things working on on the story about Ron. I learned things from the book. I learned things from the conversations we’re having. You know, I would say don’t be lazy and assume you know anything. You know, the federal government is 2 million people.

It’s huge, is complex. It does a lot of things. Many, you know, the conversation we’ve had lately about the National Weather Service, there’s there’s just a lot to learn. So I wouldn’t take anything for granted, and I would poke around. I profiled before this book, the former secretary of interior, Deb Haaland and, you know, interior, interior.

For a while, I was a New Yorker profile and interior. For a while, it was called the Department of Everything Else. You know, all of the stuff from government that had nowhere else to be got thrown into interior. And it was tremendously interesting to look at what DUI does. And, you know, you think, you know, and you don’t.

And you can poke around on these websites, you know, you can go and you can tour these agencies. They have public tours, all of them, you know, you go and someone will walk you around and talk to you about the work of the agency. And I would just say learn, you know, before you criticize, I mean, Wikipedia is full of all kinds of information about these agencies.

There’s a ton of information. And, you know, if you’ve ever if you’ve gotten a USDA grant, go and see what part of USDA awarded it you know, if you’re concerned about your local food bank, go and find out. You know, how do they actually get their food? What what local, state and federal agencies are overlaid into that? If there’s something you’re grateful for, if there’s something you’re not happy with, you know, actually learn about how the funding works and the oversight works.

So I think coming to government with, an appetite for information and an openness to learn, is is the only way to do it. And again, I think people who like, you know, they get worked up about something and God bless and they run for like Board of Education. And then they find out how the Board of Education works, and then they find out I have a the state Department of Education works, and it’s a learning process.

And again, I think there’s room for improvement. There’s all kinds of redundancies and inefficiencies and things we could do better. So I’m not saying, you know, only come to genuflect and you know, pay obedience to the government, you know, bring your good ideas, bring your reform, bring your modernization. And I think, you know, that’s something I would say about the federal bureaucracy to a lot of what people hate is not like Ron and his colleagues dreamed it up.

It’s like they’re congressionally mandated to do things this way. Or the appropriations work in this specific way. So, you know, before you complain and find out who you should be complaining to. And, the more you learn, the better able you are to, actualize the change you want. And maybe that is, you know, reducing size or reducing services.

This this is a democracy. People are entitled to their own views, but I think a lot of times people think they know what the government is and they complain and they force, and then they go looking and they realize, oh, actually, it’s doing a lot really well, you know, and it’s meeting, it’s meeting the needs of a great many people.

So I think, you know, come in with an open mind and an appetite to learn, is probably essential. And a humility, too. I tried to bring humility to this project. This what was fun? Who was government? I actually had no idea. You know, we really did learn a lot and had a lot of fun.

David Martin: It is amazing when you talk with people who work in government, how many people are there for the right reasons and work hard and, you know, don’t make the papers and don’t get the money. And yeah, you know, see it as their as their personal mission, you know. That’s right.

Casey Cep: Yeah.

David Martin: But we could we, we could talk to you and I should probably talk about this way too long for most other people.

Casey Cep: So the question you know, I would just say one thing. Your listeners are, you know, they’re practitioners and they’re they’re in the trenches. And, don’t be bashful. You know, send an email to Casey. I have a website, you know, say, I think The New Yorker should be writing about this. You know, we get sent leads and story tips all the time from people who are like, this is bad.

This doesn’t work. You know, this is waste. This is fraud. Be the person who says I, you know, encountered this fisheries team at, you know, Fish and Wildlife and they’re doing great work or you know, I know this cotton researcher at, you know, the University of Mississippi, and he’s gotten USDA grants. And he’s, you know, he’s helping the cotton producers, you know, plant the seed, reach out to the local paper, say, you ought to do a story on X, Y, or Z, that is tremendously useful to the media.

Be the be the source of good news and good information. And don’t just talk amongst your colleagues, but help spread the word.

David Martin: I like that idea. The question I usually ask most politicians is, okay, I’m coming to your town, your city, your state. I’ve never been there before. What’s the one thing I must try? What’s the what’s the cuisine of your neighborhood you’re from? You said you’re from the Eastern Shore of Maryland. So I got to ask. Crabs?

Yes.

Casey Cep:
Oh, yeah. Blue crabs. Kelenic to savages. That’s the Latin name. Beautiful swimmers. We we are blessed with the bounty that is blue crabs. But, you know, the specific thing I’d say. And actually, to the point, the New Yorker will kind of let you write about anything. Yes. Last summer I wrote about, this this wonderful spice mix, old Bay.

Maybe I’ve heard of it. Anyway, if you’re going to have blue crabs, you got to have the old bay. And, that was a lot of fun to look at the history of that.

David Martin: And the history of old Bay.

Casey Cep: I did. Yeah. Well.

David Martin: I have to say that.

Casey Cep: Yeah.

David Martin: So there’s a spice that if you’re going to have a it’s, you know, a big spice of different things, but if you’re adding, if you’re anywhere near Maryland, it chances are it’s going to have all day on it.

Casey Cep: Well and Marylanders I know they like sprinkle it is practically like baptism by a little bay. You know where there’s we’ve got bumper stickers. You know, it’s just everywhere. And yeah, I mean it’s also it’s like this it’s a great story. You know, it was.

David Martin: It’s great a potato chips. It’s great. I have so much tablet.

Casey Cep: Yeah. And it’s such an American Story was created by a Jewish immigrant family who fled the Holocaust and came to Baltimore and, you know, started a small business and grew it and became, you know, a huge thing.

David Martin: So I thought it was older than that. It’s only, you know, relatively recently.

Casey Cep: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it’s it’s from the early 20th century. So anyway. But yeah, come to Maryland, have your old bay crabs, have your old bay potato chips. Have your old bay French fries. Top to bottom is the best I argue it’s the best condiment in the country, and I, I think I would stand by that.

David Martin: All right, well, I wrote a cookbook, and I mentioned old Bay in my book more than once. More than once.

Casey Cep: Amazing. All the credibility you need. Who needs good government? You need to kind of,

David Martin: Well, this is the good government show. We are the voice of public service, and we always like to bring it back to a good example of good government. Tell me about something that, Ron Walters at the National Cemetery Administration, pulled off that you were really impressed with that said, that’s good government.

Casey Cep: You know, you mentioned his training center, so he brings teams from around the country. So there’s consistency and uniformity. But the other thing Ron did was create a call center. So it used to be that, you know, so veteran died. Their loved ones would call and they just call the local cemetery. And it depended on the business hours and it was haphazard, you know.

And what Ron did was create a national, call center. So no matter what day of the week, no matter what time of night your loved one died, you could get help right away. And that call center was in Saint Louis. And it had hours that, you know, whether you were in Puerto Rico or Hawaii, you could get through.

And once they had done that, this is so, Ron. You know, they made it easier to get help when you needed it. He also helped create an entire kind of pre authorization is called pre need where a veteran, you know you can be 25 years old and plan your funeral with NCA. So your loved ones don’t have to worry about it.

And that pre need process. He evangelize is about it everywhere he goes. Because their dream is for every veteran who qualifies for these services to get them. And they always worry about people who don’t know. You know you lost your DD 214. You don’t remember it. Discharge. This is a benefit you get. You know, no matter how long after your service you pass away.

So that pre need authorization is a real blessing for families. And Ron encourages people, you know, if you’re listening and you’re a veteran you can look into it. Now. You don’t have to be sick. You don’t have to be dying. You can make those arrangements and make sure your family, is taken care of. And, you know, you can figure out which cemetery you’re going to be buried in or, you know, they have all sorts of options for green burials and for cremation.

So, he’s really just about making sure people get the benefits they’re entitled to. So the call center was the first step, and that was good. But they didn’t rest there. They went even farther to make sure, people can take advantage of their benefits and, and learn about them early and often. So that’s run. You know why?

Why wait? You can help people sooner rather than later. And you know, that’s run no matter where you live. No matter what part of the country you came from or where you reside, he wants to make sure you get the same treatment that the four star general in Washington, DC would get. So it’s really a top to bottom.

It’s a great agency doing great work. And he’s a he’s a great he’s a great civil servant.

David Martin: That is good government for sure. The book is called Who Is Government The Untold Stories of Public Service. I’m very happy to have spoken with Casey CEP, who is one of seven writers that cover, subjects such as the Department of Labor, Veterans Affairs, the Jet Propulsion Lab, archives, Food and Drug Administration, among others. The book is out now.

Who is Government? Untold Stories and Public Service. And you profiled, Ron Walters of the National Cemetery Administration. I have to say this. I have actually, been part of stories that have gotten people buried at national cemeteries. So I have been out there to do that. And my work as a reporter and I never, ever knew there was something called the National Cemetery Administration, even though I was involved.

So, great work, great stories. And thanks for coming on.

Casey Cep: Of course. Thanks for having me.

David Martin: The Good Government show is sponsored by our. That’s. Oh, you are for our community. Get involved. We hear that all the time from government leaders. Our co-branded with your governments name and logo. Your staff and the people you serve are connected and part of your community. From any device your members provide reliable data and meaningful feedback. Ask a question like, do we want more parkland or better homeless services?

More engaged conversations come through the our app. Visit our Co that’s ou rco.com and book a demonstration.

Two great stories. One about Ron Walters is the National Cemetery admission and the story of public service. The book is called Who Is Government? It’s edited by Michael Lewis. There are seven chapters. In each one, the writer picks a person that, as Casey puts it, makes them fall in love with someone in government. It’s good to read about public service from people in government who are not in it for the money and fame just to serve the people of the country, and that is good government.

And I appreciate you said that listening to our show is a really welcome service to help tell these stories. So thanks for that, Casey. So listen to a few more episodes of The Good Government Show, and then pick up who is government right now in this current political climate we’re in, maybe it should be required reading for everyone who thinks we need to cut the federal government.

Sure, there are ways to make government more efficient, but day in and day out, people in places like the National Cemetery Administration are making a difference. Well, that’s our show. Thanks for listening and thanks for listening to another example of how government does work for all of us. Please like us and share this with your friends and our viewers right here where you’re listening, and check out our website.

Good Government show.com for extras. Help us keep telling the stories of good government and action everywhere. Join us again for another episode right here. I’m Dave Martin and this is the Good Government show.

The Good Government show is a Valley Park production. Jim Ludlow, Dave Martin, that’s me and David Snyder are the executive producers. Our show is edited and produced by Jason Stershic. Please subscribe then share and like us and reviews. That’s the best way to make sure we’re able to keep telling these stories of our government working for all of us.

Then listen to the next episode of The Good Government Show.

**This transcription was created using digital tools and has not been edited by a live person. We apologize for any discrepancies or errors.