Durham is Dope, Just ask the Mayor

00:00:00:01 – 00:00:02:46
David Martin
This is the Good government show.

00:00:02:51 – 00:00:17:12
Leo Williams
Durham is cool. Durham is innovative. Durham is Creative. Durham is the city of culture, opportunity, creativity. Durham is Dope and the crowd stood up. They scream ‘ahhh’ They loved it.

00:00:17:16 – 00:00:31:47
Leo Williams
My goal is to make sure that I’m empowering staff to get beyond your big ways of thinking and operating, and get creative and be bold and think bigger and larger and higher than you ever have before.

00:00:31:52 – 00:00:45:05
Leo Williams
The moment you get it like that, you have to be okay with being like that. You got to be courageous. You have to look people in their face and be as honest as possible. That’s the only way you’re going to sleep at night.

00:00:45:10 – 00:00:50:31
Leo Williams
I think it’s really important that folks understand the limitations of government.

00:00:50:36 – 00:00:57:50
Leo Williams
North Carolina, I mean, we have the best barbecue in the nation. So debate me, guys. Debate me.

00:00:57:55 – 00:01:01:57
Leo Williams
If you can run a classroom, you can run a city.

00:01:02:02 – 00:01:20:22
David Martin
I’m going to start with a quote from the mayor of Durham, North Carolina, quote, Durham is dope and quote, so what does that mean? Well, you means you’re about to hear welcome to the Good Government show. First, help us share the message of good government by liking us and sharing us on your favorite social media. Make sure to leave a comment and join our Good Government show community.

00:01:20:27 – 00:01:36:00
David Martin
Check out our website for the link. What it means is, as Mayor Leo Williams would tell you, he wants to help make Durham a cool city. He’s got his work cut out for him, but he’s on the right path and that is good government. He’s given city money to non-profits invested in the city’s youth. Through the Bull City Investment Fund.

00:01:36:07 – 00:01:54:18
David Martin
The city has invested in housing programs and invited another mayor, where crime dropped dramatically to come to his city. He’s also created private public partnerships all good ways to move his city forward. We talked at the Conference of Mayors annual conference and talked for a while about his city and his plans. Part of his plans include tackling the housing issue.

00:01:54:32 – 00:02:11:26
David Martin
This is an issue across the nation, but as the mayor will tell you, he rents his apartment. So as a very insider’s view of the housing issue, listen to his declaration ending homelessness. You can’t accomplish big things if you don’t set big goals. I’ve heard a few mayors say that. He also has a lot to say about reducing gun violence in his city.

00:02:11:26 – 00:02:26:40
David Martin
That’s one of the big issues for residents, I should add. Mayor Williams is yet another man I talked to that started out as a teacher. A teacher voice must be impressive. As I point out in the conversation. Mayor Williams, he’s a big guy. He has bold ideas and he’s not afraid to talk about them. Dynamic is another word.

00:02:26:40 – 00:02:33:25
David Martin
So coming up, dynamic. Durham, North Carolina mayor Leo Williams.

00:02:33:30 – 00:02:57:12
David Martin
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00:02:57:16 – 00:03:08:30
David Martin
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00:03:08:35 – 00:03:26:39
David Martin
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00:03:26:43 – 00:03:33:02
David Martin
Welcome to The Good Government Show. I’m happy to have with me Leah Williams, the mayor of Durham, North Carolina, welcome to the show.

00:03:33:05 – 00:03:33:57
Leo Williams
Thank you for having me.

00:03:34:00 – 00:03:40:00
David Martin
We are here at the Conference of Mayors. It is June. I have to start with the most important thing going on in Durham. How are the Bulls doing the triple A baseball team?

00:03:40:02 – 00:03:42:07
Leo Williams
You know the Bulls are having an okay season.

00:03:42:11 – 00:03:42:45
David Martin
Just okay.

00:03:42:47 – 00:03:47:23
Leo Williams
But more so right on the drum line to Carolina are in the Stanley Cup.

00:03:47:35 – 00:03:52:42
David Martin
Oh well okay. Sorry I should have started there. Yes well good luck.

00:03:52:47 – 00:03:54:32
Leo Williams
Thank you. Dramatic.

00:03:54:37 – 00:03:56:39
David Martin
So have you thrown out a first pitch at a Durham’s game?

00:03:56:42 – 00:04:01:32
Leo Williams
A journalist, you should email them. And you should have the mayor throwing out a first pitch.

00:04:01:32 – 00:04:22:43
David Martin
Well, not for nothing, but there was a mayor who was here, and I asked him if the same question. He said he sent it nine times. So you got to talk to your fellow mayors and figure out how to get out to throw the first pitch. So I want to start with something. I read a little bit about you before we got to do this, and you said, Durham is dope and you want to make Durham the coolest place in the entire country.

00:04:22:47 – 00:04:23:23
David Martin
Is that true?

00:04:23:26 – 00:04:28:45
Leo Williams
That is very true. All the way through in Durham is dope and Durham is the coolest place on the planet.

00:04:28:52 – 00:04:34:03
David Martin
So how did you come up with Durham as dope and how has it been received? What’s the idea here?

00:04:34:03 – 00:04:55:29
Leo Williams
Besides enough? When I introduced that phrase in my very first state of the city, right, I talked about all the ways that we were punching above our weight, all the reasons why people love the city of Durham. And so Durham is cool. Durham is innovative. Durham is creative. Durham is a city of culture, opportunity, creativity, dermis, dope. And the crowd stood up.

00:04:55:29 – 00:05:15:13
Leo Williams
They screamed. They love that. Yes. And then I got an email from a more seasoned H person in my community. Okay. How dare you promote us as a city of drugs? And that’s. Oh, no, no, that’s not what it meant. My generation dope meant cool, you know? And so it was a little while.

00:05:15:18 – 00:05:17:51
David Martin
That’s why you had mentioned it to the coolest place in the entire.

00:05:17:56 – 00:05:33:41
Leo Williams
Exactly. You know, and I did not think that people were going to take it and run with it a different direction. But only one segment of the population did that. The next thing you know, everyone is getting t shirts. Dermis. Dope. Germans are the firefighters. Germans don’t fire department. That’s cool.

00:05:33:43 – 00:05:35:12
David Martin
All right. So you started to try.

00:05:35:14 – 00:05:36:09
Leo Williams
Adding a little flavor.

00:05:36:09 – 00:05:41:02
David Martin
So Durham is next to Raleigh. It’s part of the triangle I guess they call it in North Carolina.

00:05:41:04 – 00:05:42:11
Leo Williams
Yeah yeah we’re right.

00:05:42:11 – 00:06:02:27
David Martin
They’re very progressive city. Lots of universities, lots of colleges, lots of students, lots of people move in there. And certainly a city that’s growing in size. How are you managing that growth? Because there’s I’ve read a little bit about you there. You’ve put out a couple of proposals to build more on on city land and city property and around your city.

00:06:02:32 – 00:06:09:55
David Martin
And then some people are saying, well, let’s not be too hasty in building. There’s still a lot of natural Durham left over. Let’s keep it that way. How do you balance that?

00:06:09:58 – 00:06:31:49
Leo Williams
Yeah, this is one area where I, I pissed a few folks. All I could better terms, right? I am very unapologetic about the logic behind supply and demand. I own three restaurants, my wife and I, and I’m renting an apartment because I can’t even get into the housing market. And the people who are shouting and advocating, you know, no more.

00:06:31:52 – 00:06:56:12
Leo Williams
There’s no more housing, no more of that, no more development or the folks that have homes. And so what I say to them, you know, like, how is it that you are in City Hall advocating for us not to support more housing supply, when five years ago you were the one that people were actually against so far years ago you were the problem, and now you’re now saying you’re the solution for keeping the character of the neighborhood.

00:06:56:14 – 00:07:13:44
Leo Williams
And so I just pushed back on that. I don’t I don’t play around the gray area on that. I’m very black and white about it. How is it we are an amazing place to live. People love the triangle as a whole and Durham even more. And you know, because of that, there are so many folks that are coming there and we have to be able to keep up with it.

00:07:13:44 – 00:07:25:56
Leo Williams
So we have come up with a model to mitigate growth. We have expanded housing choices. We deregulated a significant part of our youdo. I mean, for us to be so progressive, there were things in our youdo that were so.

00:07:26:08 – 00:07:27:53
David Martin
I’m sorry. Oh, tell everybody.

00:07:27:58 – 00:07:34:57
Leo Williams
You know, it’s our unified development ordinance. It’s like the the Bible for local government on how we build it.

00:07:34:57 – 00:07:36:12
David Martin
How do we essentially we’re.

00:07:36:24 – 00:07:59:34
Leo Williams
Only in annexation. And basically I’ll give you one example. Churches. Let me tell you, churches do not make money on love offerings. Churches make money because they have a lot of real estate. And it’s really hard to keep up with the taxes if they aren’t able to do more with their land. And in our youdo, churches were only allowed to build one single dwelling unit for the spiritual leader.

00:07:59:34 – 00:08:10:36
Leo Williams
Well, we’ve removed that policy. It was to restrictive and we now churches can now build as much as they want. So guess what? They are building so much affordable housing. They are. They are.

00:08:10:43 – 00:08:11:24
David Martin
On church property.

00:08:11:26 – 00:08:18:02
Leo Williams
On church property. So now they are generating a stream of revenue that are contributing to the greater good of the community while also still praising the Lord.

00:08:18:04 – 00:08:21:11
David Martin
Not to mention probably building a pretty nice community by the church.

00:08:21:14 – 00:08:36:27
Leo Williams
They are and they are putting signage up saying, this is the Mount Vernon Church neighborhood. Yeah. Or, you know, the Mount Vernon community. It’s a beautiful thing that’s happening. But we’re adding supply. And as we add supply and expanded tax base, we do not have to raise taxes and we’re housing more people.

00:08:36:37 – 00:08:42:03
David Martin
You have made a vow that you are going to end homelessness in Durham by 2031. How’s it going?

00:08:42:10 – 00:08:51:07
Leo Williams
What? We just accepted the resolution. My council is on board. Okay. We are. I’m not afraid of dollar signs. And I’m not afraid of two ambitious goals I.

00:08:51:07 – 00:08:54:48
David Martin
Read about. You don’t seem to be afraid of much. No, I’m not.

00:08:54:53 – 00:08:55:33
Leo Williams
And and.

00:08:55:40 – 00:08:59:04
David Martin
I should point out, by the way, I’m 62. You’re taller than me.

00:08:59:09 – 00:08:59:26
Leo Williams
Six.

00:08:59:26 – 00:09:03:09
David Martin
Five, six, five. And so. Yeah. Yeah, I just know you were in the room.

00:09:03:14 – 00:09:25:53
Leo Williams
Be afraid to take on something that you don’t know how to solve yet. Right? But you’ll never know how to get there. You don’t start somewhere. And so yes, I believe that we can in homeless, in homelessness between 2030 and 2035. What we’re defining in in homelessness is no one should be living on the streets. No one should be without a roof over their head.

00:09:25:56 – 00:09:41:18
Leo Williams
And if they are, it would be rare and it will be quick. So if we find that you are homeless, we should be able to have resources in place to temporarily get you back on your feet and into a transitional period where you be, you can become self-sustainable.

00:09:41:19 – 00:09:45:16
David Martin
So, Mr. Mayor, this sounds great. This isn’t easy. How are you going to do it?

00:09:45:30 – 00:10:05:53
Leo Williams
First of all, you have to build some more temporary housing. Okay? We have old supply of public housing. What? We took our public housing supply, our public housing community. We are now no more. Just just one income home, one income. Housing. Low income to no income. We are having mixed income housing. And so we’re diluting all of our public housing communities.

00:10:05:58 – 00:10:32:11
Leo Williams
And we’re moving those to be mixed income, mixed use, so that taekwondo can have the same access to amenities and a quality of life. As Thomas and I want to make sure that every child can live a decent quality of life. Every family can. But that leaves us all of this old supply. It is cheaper to just renovate and have it as temporary housing, but you cannot allow it to be sustained as permanent housing and as low quality.

00:10:32:16 – 00:10:54:41
Leo Williams
So what you have to do is you have to provide people the resources. You have to upskill people, you have to provide them a way back on their own feet. And if it’s a mental health situation, then we should be able to have the resources to handle that. But what we’re looking at doing is having more housing with wraparound services, and that way it’s we’re not leaving you out just hanging dry in a part sleeping homelessness although many people want to.

00:10:54:48 – 00:10:58:07
Leo Williams
Yes. And I understand that. But you will not be allowed to do that in my city.

00:10:58:09 – 00:11:11:01
David Martin
Doesn’t Durham have a lot of I mean, this is Tobacco Road, this is the world headquarters or American headquarters for the tobacco industry. Aren’t there a lot of old warehouses that have been sort of abandoned in your city? Yes, I live in one. I live in one.

00:11:11:06 – 00:11:35:07
Leo Williams
All of those properties have been rehabbed, rehabilitated and are now mixed. Mixed housing, mixed use. There are many amenities for the city. They are attractions. But we do have land and we have properties that we can convert to temporary housing. It’s not going to be the glam and fam it’s going to be. You know you have a place to lay your head, you have a place to clean, cleanse yourself and take care of yourself.

00:11:35:19 – 00:11:55:15
Leo Williams
And you’re going to have wraparound services to be able to get you in and out and on your feet. Now, if it is a mental health situation and we have what’s called the community Safety department that is actually doing a case management to help manage and provide support for those individuals, but we will not let you just take over a park and create an encampment and just stay there.

00:11:55:18 – 00:11:59:22
Leo Williams
You yourself don’t even deserve to live that way. And we want, we want allow it.

00:11:59:30 – 00:12:05:29
David Martin
You. I think the city invested or you spearheaded an investment of $13 million in all this. Yes.

00:12:05:34 – 00:12:24:06
Leo Williams
Now, there’s still a lot of questions. And even me, I’m I am a policymaker. I set the goal. I set the policy direction. The staff comes up with a plan. We still have to figure out how we’re going to make this a reality. And I and for me, the metric of success is does our philanthropy community believe in it?

00:12:24:14 – 00:12:28:13
Leo Williams
Are they sold? And right now I don’t think so. And so what I’m telling our staff.

00:12:28:16 – 00:12:30:11
David Martin
Don’t they know that it’s dope? Well.

00:12:30:11 – 00:12:50:19
Leo Williams
I wouldn’t even say dope. I think what would be dope is the fact that we’re taking it on. Okay, what’s not dope is the fact that we have not done it yet. And so my goal is to make sure that I’m empowering staff to get beyond your ways of thinking and operating, and get creative and be bold and think bigger and larger and higher than you ever have before.

00:12:50:29 – 00:12:59:00
Leo Williams
And I’m going to back you on that. So $13 million is the price tag of achieving that goal. We have to plan. But there are still some operational things we have to figure out.

00:12:59:02 – 00:13:12:44
David Martin
Certain million dollars in a city budget is not a lot of money. $13 million is a lot of money. Correct. How is this government dollars well spent in one area that doesn’t necessarily affect the a lot, the majority of the population.

00:13:12:50 – 00:13:30:07
Leo Williams
What does affect the majority of the population is the quality of life. You don’t want someone panhandling outside of your business. You don’t want, you know, people sleeping in the park, taking over the park outside of your home. So therefore that’s why the the issue at hand is homelessness. And that does affect a large part of our population.

00:13:30:12 – 00:13:48:37
Leo Williams
The funding is not going to come just from the government. The government is putting 4.5 million into it. Everything else is coming from the private sector. And I should remind you, this is only 50% of our major issues. The other is violent crime reduction. That strategy that’s going to take about $15 million. You know, we we identify we are identifying where folks are.

00:13:48:40 – 00:14:10:55
Leo Williams
We also identifying what’s causing it. In two weeks from today we’re here on June 5th. Two weeks from today, I’m going to be having a three day summit where we’ve already done 12 community listening sessions on the issue of grind. And so my goal is to reduce homelessness to be rare and quick by 2031 to 2035, and to have a Vision Zero plan for violent crime reduction in the city of Durham.

00:14:10:55 – 00:14:33:25
Leo Williams
And I want no young person to have access to a gun. I want no young person to be pulling triggers on guns, and I want no person to be killed by a gun. So it’s going to take a lot of advocacy around gun safety. We can’t control the Second Amendment and how to Congress is funding to it. But what I can do is I can empower people to to work together and create a safe, creating a safer community.

00:14:33:30 – 00:14:40:58
David Martin
And what do you say to the people who say, no, it’s my right to have a gun. It’s my right to have 20 guns. It’s my right to have these guns in my house. And you can’t tell me what to do.

00:14:41:05 – 00:14:57:40
Leo Williams
Absolutely. It is a right. It was my right when I grew up as well. It’s my right to have the gun that I have right now. You as a responsible gun owner. My issue. Now, if you’re not teaching someone how to be responsible like yourself, then that might be an issue. You know, now, if you have a gun, you’re not licensed, you’re not being responsible.

00:14:57:40 – 00:15:01:50
Leo Williams
You’re using it to harm someone. Then you and I have issues and I’m coming for you.

00:15:01:52 – 00:15:06:14
David Martin
I believe that gun deaths are the number one cause of deaths for teenage boys.

00:15:06:21 – 00:15:21:37
Leo Williams
I’ll be even more specific. 90% of the people who are pulling triggers and killing people in my city are young black men. And 90% of the people in my city who are being killed by those triggers being pulled look like me, young black men. That is an issue. It’s personal.

00:15:21:44 – 00:15:31:00
David Martin
You are used to be a teacher. In fact, as I read somewhere, you were a teacher of the year once, twice, twice. Teacher of the year. How does being a teacher make you a good mayor? An effective mayor?

00:15:31:05 – 00:15:53:54
Leo Williams
If you can run a classroom, you can run a city. I mean, you have multiple personalities with multiple interests coming into the classroom, multiple influences, music taught music. You have one direction. You’re trying to move them, teach them, or help them accomplish and attain the information you’re trying to provide them. That’s the goal. But they have so many distractions and so many interests, and it’s a democracy.

00:15:53:56 – 00:16:00:56
Leo Williams
You know, you want to make sure that everyone can input into the classroom and the way it’s going. You can run a classroom or school. You can run a city.

00:16:00:58 – 00:16:04:44
David Martin
How often do you have to use your teacher voice, for example, at city council meetings?

00:16:04:46 – 00:16:25:38
Leo Williams
Well, I did just recently. Someone was coming into they came into the into City Hall and I won’t give it the glory of saying her name, but she came in doing political satire and it was on a contract for our officers. Now officers have nine millimeter Glocks, but we are pulling AK 47 AR 15 off the streets in America.

00:16:25:42 – 00:16:49:00
Leo Williams
And so they were outgunned. They were out for, you know, it’s not about war on the streets, but it’s about, you know, the reality, the bad things happening. There are bad people doing bad things. Well, she came in making light of the the city budget and making light of, you know, the contract that the officers, you know, we want them to have drones so we can help them, you know, keep people safe during protests and want to make sure they have tasers with more prongs so they don’t have to pull out their guns and shoot someone.

00:16:49:07 – 00:17:03:52
Leo Williams
We have more police oversight with cameras, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, she made light of it. And I said, you know, man, we don’t want to. We can’t get rid of the police, which is what she was asking for. That’s if we get rid of the police. And it’s folks like me and my community who are going to get hurt.

00:17:03:52 – 00:17:25:05
Leo Williams
The were the worst. And she made light of it and I just I made it very clear there are people dying. There’s a mother who lost their child just last week, and you have the audacity to come in here and make it light with your privilege. And she’s a white woman that puts on a blond wig and pretends to be a wealthy white lady who is a loving gentrification and loving wealth and loving corporate companies.

00:17:25:08 – 00:17:28:00
Leo Williams
And I just didn’t think it was cool, and I called her out on it.

00:17:28:10 – 00:17:28:48
David Martin
How’d that go?

00:17:28:51 – 00:17:30:43
Leo Williams
She left the room.

00:17:30:47 – 00:17:33:36
David Martin
Okay. Tell me about the Bull City Future Fund.

00:17:33:38 – 00:17:41:19
Leo Williams
I hate government. I hate and I’m the mayor of a city. Yes, I hate it because we.

00:17:41:23 – 00:17:44:11
David Martin
This is the good government show. Please be nice.

00:17:44:16 – 00:18:02:44
Leo Williams
I hate it, you know, sometimes. And I’ll tell you why. We all run for office. Because we have things we believe in. We have agendas that we want to run. And, you know, for in respect of the show, I ran because I wanted to support small businesses and I wanted to provide opportunities for our youth to grow up and flourish in our city.

00:18:02:56 – 00:18:32:08
Leo Williams
And I wanted just simply good governance. And I got there and realized that, you know, people had political agendas. They were elected because they were pushed by political PAC at the local level, and they were pushing things that they were passionate about. But I was like, well, I have things I’m passionate about, like small business and education, but there are some things that, you know, I have to prioritize over my own passion, and that’s keeping our children safe in our community, our constituents safe.

00:18:32:13 – 00:18:54:57
Leo Williams
And I could not get enough support on that. I couldn’t get support in the budget to make sure that we were investing in activities for our kids and I, it just blew my mind. So I said, screw it. I’m going to do it anyway. I mean, I am the mayor, I have a platform. And so I called some friends at the United Way of the Greatest wrangle, and I called my friends at the Triangle Community Foundation, and I said, I’m not asking.

00:18:54:57 – 00:19:15:03
Leo Williams
I’m telling you that you have an obligation here to help me provide for our young people. And that we did. And I, I announced, said, I’m going to raise $1 million to invest in youth serving organizations in this city to make sure our kids are involved and engaged. The only thing they have to commit to is expanding their footprint.

00:19:15:13 – 00:19:41:09
Leo Williams
And I raised $1 million and I gave out the first 300,000, and then they kept going. And now the Bull City Future Fund has expanded to my probably one of my biggest political risks, and that is Invest America. So I just recently announced that I am raising $9 million to ensure that every single child between the ages of three and ten, in the city of Durham has an investment account started by Brad Gerstner with investor American Foundation.

00:19:41:11 – 00:20:14:21
Leo Williams
Because President Trump is in office and he’s a marketer. President Trump said, I support this, if we can call it Trump accounts. Well, you can imagine being a Democratic mayor in a city with 90% registered voters, a Democrat. Yes. How it sounds to say I’m promoting Trump accounts, but what I have to really do is get my ego out of the way and realize that if I could raise this 9 million to match the 250, that’s going to be in every child’s account when they sign up, that I actually changed the financial trajectory of young people and families in my city for generations to come.

00:20:14:26 – 00:20:34:49
Leo Williams
And so we launched it, and we’ve already had hundreds or thousands of students to sign up, and they have 250, thanks to Michael and Susan Dale with Democrats who donated billions. And I’m doing 9 million to match them. And so every child, 3 to 10 in my city will have $500 and a compounding investment account. Yes, it’s called Trump account.

00:20:34:49 – 00:20:40:03
Leo Williams
It’ll be called something else in two and a half years. But what matters is they have this option.

00:20:40:05 – 00:20:43:10
David Martin
Well, for someone who hate, who hates government, this sounds like good government.

00:20:43:10 – 00:20:45:00
Leo Williams
That’s the goal.

00:20:45:05 – 00:20:54:02
David Martin
All right. We are talking with Mayor Leo Williams, and we’re going to be right back.

00:20:54:07 – 00:21:19:20
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00:21:24:10 – 00:21:41:57
David Martin
Want to hear more about Good government? Check out another show I host leading Iowa good Government in Iowa cities. I host the show with Brad Cavanaugh, mayor of Dubuque, Iowa, and the immediate past president of the Iowa League of Cities. Together, we talked to leaders in Iowa cities. We talk about what works and what good government looks like in Iowa.

00:21:42:07 – 00:21:49:16
David Martin
Join us right here. We’re listening. Now that’s leading Iowa. Good government in Iowa cities.

00:21:49:21 – 00:21:58:20
David Martin
So there’s a series of questions I ask all mayors. I can’t wait to get to this with you. We’re talking with Mayor Leo Williams of Durham, North Carolina, to find good government. What is it to you?

00:21:58:32 – 00:22:25:47
Leo Williams
You know, good governance is when it’s responsive, when it’s responsive to the needs and the desires of the constituency. It’s having the sharp talent in the administration and having an elected body who is not afraid of just simply leading. You’re always going to have 50 to 70 people show up at your city hall, but it was not 50 to 70 people who elected you.

00:22:25:52 – 00:22:41:51
Leo Williams
And you have to sometimes look your friends in the face and say, this is just simply not the right thing to do. And sometimes you have to look your enemies in the face and say, this is just simply the right thing to do, and you can’t be afraid and you cannot be held up on a vote. You have to the moment you get elected.

00:22:41:53 – 00:23:01:04
Leo Williams
You have to be okay with being on the elected. You gotta be courageous. You have to look people in their face and be as honest as possible. That’s the only way you’re going to sleep at night. And if you can do that, then you can lead an organization that’s going to be responsive to the people. It’s going to be responsive to the needs and the desires and provide the city what it needs.

00:23:01:11 – 00:23:04:02
David Martin
The moment you’re elected, you have to be ready to be unelected.

00:23:04:04 – 00:23:04:54
Leo Williams
Absolutely.

00:23:05:06 – 00:23:09:52
David Martin
I like that. If people are frustrated with government, with your administration or you personally, what should they do?

00:23:09:54 – 00:23:18:10
Leo Williams
One day should get involved. But communication is key. I mean, listen, in government you’re going to see the nobody’s going to call you and say, I’m so proud of what the government.

00:23:18:10 – 00:23:18:56
David Martin
Is doing.

00:23:19:01 – 00:23:21:48
Leo Williams
No, they’re going to say, you know what you guys don’t show.

00:23:21:49 – 00:23:22:08
David Martin
Yeah.

00:23:22:10 – 00:23:42:21
Leo Williams
You know, y’all, you didn’t pick my trash up or you know, the water has a smell or, you know, just anything. People call to complain. But if you can get folks to say, actually, I like working here, okay? I love living here. I thank you. You guys actually fix this. That’s what it’s all about. You know, they should just simply communicate.

00:23:42:26 – 00:23:47:18
David Martin
So you were a teacher of the year twice. You’re a musician yourself. What made you decide to run for mayor?

00:23:47:21 – 00:23:52:01
Leo Williams
Well, I had no intentions. I always wanted to be a background behind the scenes operative.

00:23:52:01 – 00:23:52:20
David Martin
I don’t.

00:23:52:20 – 00:23:54:15
Leo Williams
Believe in education policy.

00:23:54:18 – 00:23:54:37
David Martin
I’m not.

00:23:54:37 – 00:24:05:08
Leo Williams
Buying that. That is all I wanted to do. And so that’s why I leaned in. But when I opened my restaurant with my wife, I got my first tax bill.

00:24:05:12 – 00:24:24:47
Leo Williams
And verbatim, I said, how the hell can you do business here? It’s too expensive. And so I went down to City Hall and I asked for help. And one person said, I’m a socialist. I don’t even like the fact that you guys are making money on people anyway. And I’m sorry. What? And I was like, what? You know, she said, I’m progressive and these are my values.

00:24:24:50 – 00:24:43:56
Leo Williams
And I just think that you’re trying to use the government and taxpayer dollars to, you know, set yourself up when you’re already making money. And I just I felt that it was the most ignorant statement I’ve ever I’d ever heard, you know, heard someone say. And they were an elected official at the time. And so I as competitive as I am.

00:24:44:03 – 00:25:08:40
Leo Williams
Yes. I said thank you for your remarks. I’m coming for you, and I’ll see you soon. I didn’t mean it a valid way, but I definitely was motivated to make a change. That’s a small businesses, you know. We’re not some corporations. We’re not Walmart. We’re not Ruth’s Chris. We’re a small mom and pop restaurant who, you know, our car declined at a McDonald’s the night before we open our restaurant because we had given it everything we had.

00:25:08:42 – 00:25:08:56
David Martin
Oh.

00:25:08:59 – 00:25:28:55
Leo Williams
All right. And we just simply wanted to provide an experience and make a living and make sure we can pay our staff good. And I ran for office at one the night that I was writing my resignation letter, because I realized that this is not what I should be doing. These people are crazy. They just argue nothing. We can get nothing done.

00:25:29:00 – 00:25:43:54
Leo Williams
Someone tor to let her up. It was a custodian. I didn’t even know her name, but she left a little note and she said, I’ll be damned if we lose the hope that we finally got. And she ripped the letter up and left it there for me to see it. And I think that changed my life, man.

00:25:43:59 – 00:26:01:05
Leo Williams
Because the next day I went into to the city council meeting where I was supposed to submit that letter, and the mayor announced that she wasn’t running for reelection. And I started trying to recruit, and my assistant said, you have a meeting set up with a bunch of people. They are not taking no for an answer. And I accepted it.

00:26:01:05 – 00:26:18:12
Leo Williams
And I went into conference room and I looked in and I saw people who my they were my opponents. Yeah. And then I looked to the other side of the room and they were my supporters. When your opponents and your supporters get together and they say you’re going to be the next mayor, whether we vote you in or write you in, I think it’s time to listen.

00:26:18:14 – 00:26:19:38
Leo Williams
Yeah.

00:26:19:43 – 00:26:23:30
David Martin
Yes. At that point, it would be time to listen. Who inspires you? Do you have a political hero?

00:26:23:40 – 00:26:24:05
Leo Williams
I mean.

00:26:24:06 – 00:26:27:37
David Martin
I, you know, not the custodian. Not to be cliche.

00:26:27:40 – 00:26:40:49
Leo Williams
But I really appreciated the the swagger, the calm, cool, collected persona. Barack Obama, I just thought I’d be. He didn’t know everything, but he figured it out. You know, I appreciated that.

00:26:40:51 – 00:26:43:08
David Martin
Did you ever see yourself in office? You know.

00:26:43:13 – 00:26:59:48
Leo Williams
Not as a public, not as an elected official. Yeah. I knew I’d be engaged in politics some way, form or fashion, but I felt that I was I was a business guy who was a progressive Democrat. I didn’t think I’d be accepted. You know, I’m too pragmatic. But then I get an office like, gosh, this is actually what we needed.

00:26:59:50 – 00:27:00:19
Leo Williams
Okay.

00:27:00:23 – 00:27:06:52
David Martin
So city council now, mayor, you’re a government insider, whether you like it or not. What would you like people to know about government they don’t know?

00:27:06:57 – 00:27:29:55
Leo Williams
I think it’s really important that folks understand the limitations of government and the limitless of themselves. You can get as engaged as you want, but the moment that you rely on a government structure to appease your personal interest in full, you’re going to be highly disappointed. So understand the form of government, the type of government that it is.

00:27:29:58 – 00:27:46:06
Leo Williams
Like we’re in North Carolina, it’s a Dillon rural state. The General Assembly restricts a lot of things from us being able to that we would like to do at the local level or here in Long Beach, which is probably the strongest strong mayor form of government in the country. You know, where the government, the governor, the.

00:27:46:11 – 00:27:47:21
David Martin
City manager?

00:27:47:25 – 00:27:56:05
Leo Williams
Yeah, we’re council manager form of government here. The mayor is strong elected but strong mayor and can veto by line item. Council for 40s.

00:27:56:13 – 00:27:57:54
David Martin
What’s the best part of being mayor of Durham?

00:27:57:58 – 00:28:17:26
Leo Williams
The best part of being a mayor is. You mean so much to people when you just take time, unscripted, out of the blue and just spend time with someone you know? I can go like there was a lady who turned 97, I randomly unannounced one and knocked on the door. I she had become bedridden and the the housekeeper came and knocked.

00:28:17:31 – 00:28:37:13
Leo Williams
Came an open the door, let me in and I said, well, I’d like to go and see Miss Jones. And she was so surprised, like, oh my God, oh my God, the mayor is here. Oh my God. And I walk in the bedroom and I, she was, you know, presentable, of course. And she was watching TV and she was so happy and she said, oh my God, I watched you on TV all the time.

00:28:37:18 – 00:28:58:55
Leo Williams
And I just wanted to go and let her know that, you know, this. Jones, I appreciate the legacy that you provided for this community, and it’s just meant the world to her. And she talked about it, that ephemeral. She tells her grandkids great, great grandkids about it. That means the world to me as mayor, you know, knowing that this position and platform can it can have such a significant impact on people.

00:28:59:04 – 00:29:10:04
David Martin
Have been at Durham a few times. I know my favorite barbecue place, but I want to ask you, what’s your what’s the dish of Durham? What’s your favorite place to eat? Now I’m giving you an opportunity because you said you own three restaurants.

00:29:10:06 – 00:29:10:40
Leo Williams
Yeah.

00:29:10:52 – 00:29:13:01
David Martin
So if I’m coming. Where are we meeting? What are we doing?

00:29:13:06 – 00:29:21:27
Leo Williams
First we’re going to meet at my restaurant, at least. ESZWELIS, which is my wife’s name. Okay.

00:29:21:32 – 00:29:22:25
David Martin
And what do we serve there.

00:29:22:25 – 00:29:35:24
Leo Williams
And a.k.a KHAYA. It’s it’s a, it’s an afro fusion tapas eclectic styled restaurant okay. Sits over the waterfalls in downtown Durham is.

00:29:35:26 – 00:29:35:50
David Martin
Beautiful.

00:29:35:53 – 00:29:57:08
Leo Williams
I’m sure. But outside of my own restaurant I would say, little bull, little bull. As is a topless restaurant. There’s a Mexican, but it’s really good. It’s actually. I’ll say Latin. All right. And also, there’s a fish joint called the shrimp Boat. It’s just so good, you know, just it it’s just casual dining, you know? Just go sit it.

00:29:57:08 – 00:30:00:46
Leo Williams
It’s like a little hut, and you won’t be. You won’t be disappointed.

00:30:00:56 – 00:30:03:10
David Martin
What’s the most popular dish on your. At your restaurant?

00:30:03:13 – 00:30:18:53
Leo Williams
My restaurant. Probably the, the oxtail or the. The Burberry or the Burberry hen. It takes 48 hours to make it. Marinades for most of that time. Of course, the day I have, we import the spice, the Burberry spice from Addis Ababa. And yeah, it’s just it’s like.

00:30:19:04 – 00:30:20:40
David Martin
I can still go to city barbecue though, right?

00:30:20:43 – 00:30:22:04
Leo Williams
You can still go to city barbecue.

00:30:22:07 – 00:30:22:21
David Martin
Good.

00:30:22:23 – 00:30:23:07
Leo Williams
Or dealers.

00:30:23:11 – 00:30:24:40
David Martin
All right.

00:30:24:45 – 00:30:29:30
Leo Williams
North Carolina. I mean, we have the best barbecue in the nation. So debate me, guys. Debate me.

00:30:29:33 – 00:30:40:25
David Martin
All right. No, I have never had a bad deal there. So this is the good government show. We always bring it back to good government. Tell me about a project. Maybe even a small project that you’re really excited about. That’s good government in your city.

00:30:40:27 – 00:30:52:26
Leo Williams
I would probably say the Durham Rail Trail. We are obviously a tobacco town. Right. And that means that there are train tracks all over the city, and we’ve built on top of those train tracks.

00:30:52:26 – 00:30:54:53
David Martin
I have ridden my bike on those train tracks.

00:30:54:57 – 00:31:12:54
Leo Williams
Well, what are those train tracks? You still see it in the ground? It’s not built over. It’s built around. We’re now turning that track into an actual trail, five mile trail that goes through the heart and through the core of the city. And you can. My goal is to make sure that every form of transportation is acknowledged, every mode.

00:31:13:08 – 00:31:25:05
Leo Williams
And that means biking, walking, using trails to get from point A to point B as formal, points of transportation. And so I’m really excited about it. We’re acquiring the land now and we’re starting construction.

00:31:25:08 – 00:31:26:36
David Martin
Do you run and walk ride a bike?

00:31:26:39 – 00:31:27:12
Leo Williams
I work out.

00:31:27:12 – 00:31:27:51
David Martin
A lot, okay.

00:31:27:53 – 00:31:44:23
Leo Williams
But I write my bike everywhere. I, I take pride in being so accessible. Okay, so, folks, they see the mayor riding down the street on his bike in a suit and tie. It’s the thing now, you know, like the door. The bill, the bill. Hobbs said. The rest of the hotels, they’re like, hey, that’s the mayor right there.

00:31:44:26 – 00:31:47:52
Leo Williams
You know, that’s my mayor here, you know? All right. Even the homeless guys, you.

00:31:47:52 – 00:31:48:25
David Martin
Know, they all.

00:31:48:25 – 00:31:49:40
Leo Williams
Know who choose to be homeless.

00:31:49:42 – 00:31:50:44
David Martin
Had you righted your suit?

00:31:50:54 – 00:31:51:28
Leo Williams
Oh, yeah.

00:31:51:30 – 00:31:51:52
David Martin
You did.

00:31:51:54 – 00:31:53:23
Leo Williams
Yeah. Hey. I’m here. How you doing?

00:31:53:25 – 00:31:54:37
David Martin
You ride to work on your bike.

00:31:54:42 – 00:31:55:13
Leo Williams
Every day.

00:31:55:15 – 00:31:55:51
David Martin
Do you really?

00:31:55:56 – 00:31:59:30
Leo Williams
Every day. I don’t want to deal with stoplights and parking.

00:31:59:35 – 00:32:09:17
David Martin
Yeah. Leo Williams, the mayor of Durham, North Carolina. It was a pleasure getting to talk with you and having you on. Thank you so much. And I will see you in Durham.

00:32:09:22 – 00:32:14:05
Leo Williams
Thanks. Thank you. It.

00:32:14:09 – 00:32:35:30
David Martin
The Good Government Institute has a new partner, the Charles F Kettering Foundation. I really like their podcast, The Context, and I bet you will too. They have a new series called Democracy Under Construction. The show is hosted by historian Alex Lovett, and he looks back at the first 250 years of U.S. history. Alex digs into the moments that have pushed us towards an inclusive democracy.

00:32:35:37 – 00:32:42:39
David Martin
You can find it where you’re listening right now, or visit Kettering and give him a follow.

00:32:42:44 – 00:33:02:40
David Martin
What if Lincoln hadn’t been shot? What if World War One hadn’t happened? Jim Ludlow, Good Government Show executive producer, explores both those ideas in two books in Lincoln Beyond the Bullet, he imagines that Lincoln lives in Royal Cousins. He imagines what would have happened if three kings, all cousins, hadn’t blundered their way into war. What if. Think about it.

00:33:02:43 – 00:33:09:54
David Martin
Go to Good Institute books and order a copy.

00:33:09:59 – 00:33:30:50
David Martin
Here’s maybe my favorite quote from the mayor. The moment you get elected. You have to be okay with being unelected. You got to be courageous. That’s from a man who says he hates government, but he’s doing his best to create good government. Durham, North Carolina mayor Leo Williams one small, good government solution. Church is being allowed to build housing, building affordable housing and creating their own communities.

00:33:30:58 – 00:33:45:42
David Martin
Not a huge solution, but everything helps. And I have to mention Afro fusion tapas at a Kia in Durham. I’m adding to Durham soon. I’ll report back. If you live in Durham and you see a guy riding a bike in a suit and tie, it’s probably the mayor. Give him a wave. Well, that’s our show. Thanks for listening.

00:33:45:45 – 00:34:03:51
David Martin
Please like us and share with your friends and review us right here where you’re listening. And check out our website. Good government show.com for extras. Help us keep telling stories of good government in action everywhere. Join us again for another episode right here. I’m Dave Martin and this is a good government show.

00:34:03:56 – 00:34:41:44
David Martin
The Good Government Show is produced by the Good Government Institute, a nonprofit organization promoting civic engagement and civic education. All donations to the show help promote trust in government. You can donate at Good Govt Institute. Dog that’s good govt institute.org. Executive producers are Jim Ludlow, Dave Martin, that’s me and David Snyder. Jason is our editor and producer. Join us again to hear good stories about our government right here on The Good Government Show.

00:34:41:49 – 00:34:44:44
Narrator
This podcast is part of the democracy Group.

**This transcription was created using digital tools and has not been edited by a live person. We apologize for any discrepancies or errors.