Are we ready for Good Government?

00:00:00:01 – 00:00:03:25
David Martin
This is the good government show.

00:00:03:30 – 00:00:33:38
Joel Spangenberg
How do we kind of encourage more service? How do we create a shared expectation of service among more young Americans and I’m walking away from kind of just complacency and allowing leaders to really have a set of tools where they can grapple with challenges and just kind of lean into it kind of courageously to make things happen.

00:00:33:42 – 00:00:44:09
Joel Spangenberg
And realize that the politicians or the people that we interact with are humans, too, and we have to treat them that way.

00:00:44:14 – 00:00:55:27
Joel Spangenberg
Most people see government service as noble, and they’re there to ultimately make things better for the people.

00:00:55:32 – 00:01:02:33
Joel Spangenberg
So I think there’s a lot of value in ongoing learning, even for current executives.

00:01:02:38 – 00:01:23:06
David Martin
Here’s something I didn’t know. The U.S. Selective Service System is still going strong. All men over the age of 18 are required to register for the military. On this episode, we hear from the former director. We talk about military readiness and what it means to serve. Welcome to the Good Government show. I’m Dave Martin. First, help us show the message of good government by liking us and showing us where we are.

00:01:23:08 – 00:01:40:08
David Martin
On your favorite social media. Make sure to reviews and send our show everywhere. We all need to talk about good government. Jewel Spang Berg is the former acting director of the US Selective Service System. I learned a lot talking to him, mostly that the service was still in place, and I’ll let him explain why this is important, especially now.

00:01:40:13 – 00:01:57:41
David Martin
Listen to what he says about serving in the military, and what a military background can mean for those that do serve. Charles Vandenberg has a very impressive career in public service. His service started at the U.S. Naval Academy. He served as a nuclear weapons officer in the Navy. He served in the US Senate as a staff member on the Homeland Security Committee.

00:01:57:55 – 00:02:17:54
David Martin
He was a special assistant in the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. This is an incomplete resume, to be sure, but he has a long record of service. He’s another one of those guys that work in government. You may never have heard of, but he’s one of the many that dedicate their careers to public service. Now he’s a fellow with the National Academy of Public Administration and helping others improve government services.

00:02:17:58 – 00:02:34:59
David Martin
Listen to his thoughts on government, especially working in the Senate. And he has some interesting facts on who actually could be drafted should the need arise. That’s all coming up next with Joel Spang Enberg, former acting director of the US Selective Service System.

00:02:35:03 – 00:03:01:38
David Martin
We have a new partner here in the Good Government Show, Hello Nation. This is a new digital magazine that showcases the best of cities across the nation. We’d all prefer if good news traveled faster. And hello, nation. Positive stories don’t just get told, they get amplified. Hello nation helps businesses, leaders and communities share positive stories that matter building trust, credibility and meaningful connection through professionally produced podcast, digital features and targeted distribution.

00:03:01:51 – 00:03:26:12
David Martin
Hello nation positions you is the answer regular folks are looking for while expanding and scaling your digital footprint across the platforms that people trust. Good news deserves momentum. Your city or your business can help spread the word of good news across the nation and hello nation! They don’t just have advertisers, they have advertisers. Editorial content from trusted community leaders and cities that are helping spread the good news.

00:03:26:17 – 00:03:48:06
David Martin
Let Hello Nation lift you up and lead the conversation. Visit Hello nation.com to learn more. Once you wrap up this episode of The Good Government Show, give a listen to our friends over at Good News for lefties. This daily podcast highlights news stories that show there’s more good news out there. Other people in government are really trying to do the right thing.

00:03:48:18 – 00:04:07:36
David Martin
That’s good news for lefties. Listen, we’re listening now. Welcome to the Good Government show. I’m happy to have with me Joel Spank Enberg. He is currently the US country head and vice president of US Government Affairs for Core Power. But prior to that, you were the acting director of the US Selective Service System, correct?

00:04:07:38 – 00:04:08:33
Joel Spangenberg
That’s correct.

00:04:08:37 – 00:04:11:35
David Martin
I did not know that was still selective service in this country.

00:04:11:41 – 00:04:18:40
Joel Spangenberg
Oh, yes. It is still there. And we have to help remind young men every day to remember to register.

00:04:18:42 – 00:04:21:04
David Martin
What is the purpose of the US Selective Service System?

00:04:21:11 – 00:04:43:59
Joel Spangenberg
Ultimately, Selective Service is there for the nation’s defense. It’s there to really provide a pool of extra personnel to DoD. If there were to be a major war and we, you know, we hear things like the draft or conscription that is part of their mission. So if there were a major conflict in the President and Congress required conscription, Selective Service would have to be there for that.

00:04:44:12 – 00:05:04:41
Joel Spangenberg
In times of peace, Selective Service has to always remain ready. And that was a big, focus of mine when I was there. That means things like reminding men to register, keeping our systems modernized, and doing the planning, training and exercising so that we know with confidence we can deliver it. Really? What could be the most dire time?

00:05:04:42 – 00:05:25:48
David Martin
So I like I said, I, you know, I grew up, not during the Vietnam War era, but I’m younger than. But I remember the draft and I remember, you know, as part of your draft card, you know, no draft, you know, people running to Canada, they were all, you know, older than I was. But as far as selective Service goes, I thought it ended with, you know, Vietnam, the draft and didn’t have it anymore.

00:05:25:53 – 00:05:30:16
David Martin
Has this always been a requirement that people under certain age have to register?

00:05:30:21 – 00:05:59:45
Joel Spangenberg
So it’s actually, a somewhat, modern requirement, if you will. It does go back to at least during the Cold War. Now, there have been drafts in major conflicts in this century. So even in World War One, there was a draft, World War two, there was a draft. And then throughout parts of the Cold War, and you mentioned all the way through Vietnam, there was a draft and the draft ended in 1973, and it was replaced by the all volunteer force right now.

00:05:59:47 – 00:06:32:22
Joel Spangenberg
It’s very important to note that even with the all volunteer force, the draft was expected to still be available as the country should need it because the all volunteer force was not envisioned for massive warfare. And that’s where things like Selective Service would come in if the country truly had to mobilize for a major war. And since Vietnam and even before that, there hadn’t been a major, you know, war of the kind of level of something like a World War one or World War two, but it always seemed like it could happen again.

00:06:32:34 – 00:06:52:21
Joel Spangenberg
So this was a big investment for the country in terms of just thinking ahead and making sure we had the systems in place. Big investment in the sense of thinking about it and establishing systems. Small investment in terms of resources on a yearly basis to make sure we could do this. But as long as we intended to do it, we needed to do it well.

00:06:52:21 – 00:06:57:41
Joel Spangenberg
So, you know, if the draft could ever come back, we knew we had to do it well so the public could trust it.

00:06:57:43 – 00:07:06:44
David Martin
A friend of mine, who was a police chief for the New York City Police Department said, you can’t sharpen your sword once the battle has begun. It’s so true. We have to be ready. Yeah. Ready?

00:07:06:46 – 00:07:07:58
Joel Spangenberg
Absolutely, I.

00:07:08:00 – 00:07:20:32
David Martin
We were talking a little bit before we, you know, we turn the mics on. And I think the conversation was that 70% of all eligible men are not actually eligible for for military service.

00:07:20:37 – 00:07:41:36
Joel Spangenberg
That’s actually a really good, point. And thanks for bringing that, that up. And I, I learned about that number when I was at Selective Service System, and, it’s really, I mean, the way I look at it, 23% would meet, 17 to 24 year olds, would meet the, requirements to be able to serve in the military.

00:07:41:36 – 00:07:57:00
Joel Spangenberg
And there are things like physical, medical, other sorts of, items from that person’s criminal records, all that would be evaluated. So that means 77% of young people would not even be eligible to serve in today’s military.

00:07:57:01 – 00:07:58:52
David Martin
Is that a problem?

00:07:58:57 – 00:08:17:16
Joel Spangenberg
So, you know, you really have to look at what the military needs. So I don’t think I’m in a great place to say if it’s a problem or not, but what I would, I would argue it, it highlighted to me that, you know, even though 23% could serve, not everybody wanted to serve in the military. Right.

00:08:17:17 – 00:08:39:35
Joel Spangenberg
And it really illuminated a kind of another path, which was, how can we help people think about the kind of service that would be very valuable for our country beyond just military service? How could we help other service organizations in government connect with young people who could use our systems? And we had been helping the Department of Defense for over 20 years with recruitment.

00:08:39:48 – 00:08:58:18
Joel Spangenberg
We thought, hey, with that 77% of young people who just cannot serve, we should also help let them know about service opportunities using our system. How can we be, really, kind of a hub for service. So and really providing more value for the taxpayer by helping more young people serve in the government in different ways.

00:08:58:21 – 00:09:15:45
David Martin
There are lots of programs around the world that people can participate in if they choose to get an education, to be a teacher somewhere, have the government pay for something, to be a doctor somewhere. And I know that in other countries you have mandatory military service. How many of these things have been implemented in the in America?

00:09:15:45 – 00:09:18:28
David Martin
And how many of these things are people thinking about?

00:09:18:33 – 00:09:42:49
Joel Spangenberg
So that’s a good point. So, you know, number one, I, I’ve not been aware of the draft coming back, nor have I been aware of it, really a truly national, like service mandate. But one of the things that has been, really meaningful for me is I’ve thought about it. And this echoes what, General Stanley McChrystal has talked about is how do we kind of encourage more service?

00:09:42:49 – 00:10:10:27
Joel Spangenberg
How do we create a shared expectation of service among more young Americans? So we look at programs like AmeriCorps, will they where they have helped place people into communities around the country? Same thing with Peace Corps. And these are young people who go overseas and they serve in very austere environments. And there are probably many other places, but those types of service could be really well suited to people when they when they come back, into, you know, off of that service and back into their community.

00:10:10:27 – 00:10:29:25
Joel Spangenberg
So offering new perspectives. They’ve worked with a wide variety of different people. And they in just like general McChrystal mentioned earlier today, they definitely feel like more like their their shareholders in government. They they really do feel like they have more of a sense of ownership in the government as citizens. And I think that’s very profound.

00:10:29:31 – 00:10:38:39
David Martin
I should point out we’re here at the National Academy of Public Administration at their national conference. General official was, speaker this morning. And what did you you asked him a question. What did you ask?

00:10:38:54 – 00:10:58:21
Joel Spangenberg
I was asking really about that, discussion I had had with him on a couple of occasions, really to get into that, because I know there’s been a it’s been a time of profound change in government. But I always go back to the fact that, you know, being able to have more service opportunities for young people does lend itself to a stronger country.

00:10:58:31 – 00:11:08:16
Joel Spangenberg
And these, like we were just talking about, you know, if people who really are bought into the country and democracy in helping, you know, through their acts of citizenship, make our country stronger.

00:11:08:28 – 00:11:16:46
David Martin
Do you feel like you made a difference in your two years, with the Selective Service System in either making it more attractive or bringing more people in?

00:11:16:54 – 00:11:37:15
Joel Spangenberg
Well, of course, I’d like to think so. But, you know, we were faced with a real challenge right when I showed up with registration rates. And, you know, my vision working with the team was really to focus on readiness, registration and management. Excellence in the agency in the past few decades had really been focused on registration, and that’s that registration rates.

00:11:37:20 – 00:11:58:33
Joel Spangenberg
How many of the percentage of 18 to 25 year old men who are required to have registered have registered? And that number, unfortunately, had started falling before I showed up due to a change in law which linked registration from federal student aid. It used to be that you had to have been registered as a man to get federal student aid.

00:11:58:33 – 00:12:09:33
Joel Spangenberg
That linkage was broken in late 2020. And then helpful items like having on the federal, the free application, for, federal student aid, the Fafsa.

00:12:09:33 – 00:12:10:26
David Martin
Form, right.

00:12:10:31 – 00:12:32:41
Joel Spangenberg
There was a removal of the option to register for young men. So that actually cut into our registrations, and that would make up something like 20%. So we had to react to that. So I felt like we did a good job under the current legal authorities. We had to try to address it. So trying to find out how we can reach more young men and remind them to register, but also create a new policy avenue.

00:12:32:41 – 00:12:51:41
Joel Spangenberg
And we had worked on this with, you know, with Congress to get, national automated registration for young men so they wouldn’t forget. And that really built upon great lessons learned in over 40 states and territories across the country, were, registration would happen or there would be an option for it to happen when a young man got his driver’s license.

00:12:51:41 – 00:12:53:53
Joel Spangenberg
So we’re trying to make it easier and more effective.

00:12:54:02 – 00:13:01:24
David Martin
So I hope we have some young people listening. I hope some high school students perhaps, or college students sell them on the military.

00:13:01:37 – 00:13:24:05
Joel Spangenberg
Well, I I’m, I’m actually, very pro-military myself, and I, I count myself very fortunate to have served, and, you know, if I can connect with any high schoolers out there, one thing I noticed, was a deep desire to serve the country and to go push my limits, and that that’s what led me to want to try to get an appointment to the US Naval Academy.

00:13:24:05 – 00:13:49:05
Joel Spangenberg
And I was fortunate enough to go there and to have this opportunity to push myself. So I, I really feel like those opportunities to serve in the military will broaden your perspectives, will open up so many avenues in life, professionally and personally. And also the camaraderie is something that I think is second to none. The friendships that you make, the mentors that you gain will stay with you for your life.

00:13:49:05 – 00:13:54:30
Joel Spangenberg
So, I highly encourage people to consider a path of military service.

00:13:54:39 – 00:14:11:05
David Martin
I was talking with the mayor of Pensacola, Florida recently, where I think 40% of the economy in Pensacola is Navy, and military. And he was at a seminar encouraging people to hire veterans. What do veterans bring to jobs outside of the military?

00:14:11:12 – 00:14:36:30
Joel Spangenberg
Oh, you’re you’re making my day. Ask me that question. I’m, I’m a proud member of the American Legion. Okay. Here in a post in DC, the Major General Donovan post, also known as post 46. And, you know, I think veterans bring so much, they bring that, that management leadership perspective, they bring that sense of responsibility, that duty that, you know, that care for others.

00:14:36:30 – 00:14:57:07
Joel Spangenberg
And really and, you know, you hear this in certain branches of the military, it’s really the service over self that I think really does permeate the military in that culture, where you really do feel a concern for other people and you want to see your team succeed. I think that will ultimately help organizations outside of the military succeed, too.

00:14:57:12 – 00:15:14:10
David Martin
I looked a little bit at your résumé, a nuclear surface warfare officer for the Navy for, six years, Navy training, government oversight. You also worked at, as, staff assistant for the Veterans Administration. Just a whole career in public service. Why public.

00:15:14:10 – 00:15:28:15
Joel Spangenberg
Service? I don’t know exactly what drew me to it, but my mom was a teacher for, her career, and I think I saw the satisfaction she had in helping others succeed. And that had a powerful impact on.

00:15:28:17 – 00:15:29:04
David Martin
Your mom was a teacher.

00:15:29:04 – 00:15:53:20
Joel Spangenberg
She was an an elementary school teacher. And also having people around me who opened my eyes to the military, a relative of mine, served in the Navy, and he was a commanding officer of, of an A-6 squadron. It would be island. And then just experiencing that and also seeing a ship that he served on as the commanding officer, really opened my eyes to public service.

00:15:53:20 – 00:16:01:17
Joel Spangenberg
So serving in the military and then for whatever reason, I just thought it would be interesting to work in Congress because I saw that is, for.

00:16:01:17 – 00:16:03:23
David Martin
Whatever reason, I still don’t know what it is.

00:16:03:24 – 00:16:04:00
Joel Spangenberg
And I was there.

00:16:04:00 – 00:16:04:17
David Martin
Was a.

00:16:04:17 – 00:16:27:36
Joel Spangenberg
Reason I yeah, I wasn’t sure what it was, but then I when I got to the work in the Senate, I spent some time there. I realized the Senate was in many ways the crossroads of our democracy, where you had people from around the country coming there to serve and then also to talk with their elected officials. And you also had this institutional aspect of it where people would really try to find more durable solutions.

00:16:27:36 – 00:16:45:19
Joel Spangenberg
So it wasn’t as Partizan then, but certainly it still has some processes in place, like, you know, that really do require a higher vote threshold to get things done. And I think that keeps the that that chamber particularly special. And I think it’s, really a great reflection of what our democracy can be.

00:16:45:24 – 00:16:52:34
David Martin
As I said, we’re at the National Academy of Public Administration. You just finished a talk about agile policy. What is that?

00:16:52:39 – 00:16:56:06
Joel Spangenberg
Well, I’m not an expert on ag policy. If you were.

00:16:56:06 – 00:16:57:01
David Martin
Sitting at the front.

00:16:57:07 – 00:17:23:03
Joel Spangenberg
Yes, that, you know, and, really, in all fairness, I was there to talk about my experience of selective service implementing it. But what I can tell you, I know there’s going to be a great new report coming out from Napa on agile policy and what really stood out to me and I and I’m a firm believer in this policy ideas and policy development and passing policy, whatever it is, whether it’s through the executive branch or even the most profound sorts of policy, that’s law.

00:17:23:08 – 00:17:43:54
Joel Spangenberg
It really doesn’t go anywhere unless it’s backed by great implementation. And I think having kind of an informed perspective on that throughout is important. My lessons. It’s selective service, too, I think kind of connected with that because, you know, we had the opportunity to shape what our direction would be, kind of our internal policy and then focus on implementation.

00:17:43:59 – 00:18:05:53
Joel Spangenberg
And we were able to use those agile tools. And first and foremost is really having an agile mindset. What I would say, what that looks like, it’s a growth mindset. It’s it’s really just kind of recognizing that, hey, I’m not great yet, but I’ll get there. It’s really what Carol Dweck wrote about in, in a very, fundamental book on unlearning continuous learning and growth.

00:18:05:57 – 00:18:13:13
Joel Spangenberg
And I see that and I think if we embrace that in government and just know that, hey, we need to have a culture of experimentation.

00:18:13:18 – 00:18:16:08
David Martin
Now being nimble, really, I think that’s the kind of my take away.

00:18:16:09 – 00:18:38:43
Joel Spangenberg
Nimble, iterative, thoughtful risk taking which could lead to improvement and walking away from kind of just complacency and allowing leaders to really have a set of tools where they can grapple with challenges and just kind of lean into it kind of courageously to make things happen. I that’s what spoke to me about it. And that really got into implementation on the other side.

00:18:38:48 – 00:19:08:27
Joel Spangenberg
And, I think the ideas that Napa has kind of put forth, the training and focus that they’re bringing to it is helpful. And you heard that their training employees, it’s selective service in agile methodology. They’re training a senior folks in government through their programs. I think there’s a lot of potential there to really kind of encourage leaders to really have that set of tools to be even more courageous and cause more change where it’s needed for improving things in government to really build trust and drive more value for people.

00:19:08:39 – 00:19:13:06
David Martin
So you’ve been a fellow here at the National Academy for two years. What do you been working on?

00:19:13:11 – 00:19:17:10
Joel Spangenberg
I would say agile government has been something I’ve been very interested in.

00:19:17:10 – 00:19:19:19
David Martin
And so you are an expert. You take sort of.

00:19:19:27 – 00:19:34:47
Joel Spangenberg
I guess a little bit, but I’ve, I’ve just been passionate about, Napa and just being in a, in a, in an organization like this where people are constantly learning and trying to help government be better and to serve the people better, deliver more value, which.

00:19:34:47 – 00:19:35:29
David Martin
Is good government.

00:19:35:30 – 00:19:54:32
Joel Spangenberg
It is good government. Yeah. This is your show. And I think that’s important. And I you know, I think that appeals and really I believe I believe this really deeply should appeal to whoever you are, whatever party you are in, assuming you believe in government, that we want good government, we want it to work better. And, you know, we need to work together to make it happen.

00:19:54:32 – 00:20:06:26
Joel Spangenberg
And I think with, even the Napa silos or people, people from many different backgrounds, and I think that this is a really valuable group to be a part of, to kind of keep moving forward no matter what happens politically.

00:20:06:26 – 00:20:21:00
David Martin
And I don’t know if you exactly said this, but I wrote in my notes from the conference I attended that you were you were speaking one of one of the experts. That was really what you’re doing is you’re gathering together people in government or people who were in government just to share best practices.

00:20:21:09 – 00:20:30:52
Joel Spangenberg
I mean, that’s the essence of that. Yeah. And to drive it forward, like to help government continue to improve. And we would like to be resources to help them and to keep the dialog going.

00:20:30:55 – 00:20:37:24
David Martin
That was the easy part. Now we’re going to get to the hard part okay. All right.

00:20:37:29 – 00:21:01:06
David Martin
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00:21:01:19 – 00:21:12:59
David Martin
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00:21:13:04 – 00:21:36:30
David Martin
After you get done with this episode, hear more good government stories with our friends at How to Really Run a City for mayors. Kasim Reed of Atlanta and Michael Nutter of Delphia, and their co-host, journalist and author Larry Platt talk with guests and other mayors about how to really get stuff done in cities around the nation. Check them out where you’re listening now or through their nonprofit news site, The Philadelphia Citizen.

00:21:36:35 – 00:21:43:56
David Martin
Dot org slash podcasts. This is the hard part. Are you ready for the hard work?

00:21:44:07 – 00:21:45:00
Joel Spangenberg
I hope so, I.

00:21:45:00 – 00:21:58:19
David Martin
Hope so too. This is, some questions I ask everybody just to get to the heart of their philosophy about government. Sure. US Naval Academy, US Navy, you know, and then, Selective Service, I think deputy acting director rather define good government. What is.

00:21:58:19 – 00:22:17:21
Joel Spangenberg
It? A good government is I believe, a government that is, responsive to the needs of the people. Ultimately, it has to be accountable to them, and it has to feel like it delivers for them. And the employees in government really have to believe in that. They’re there for the right reasons to truly deliver for the American people.

00:22:17:30 – 00:22:25:25
David Martin
If people are frustrated by government at the federal level or even at the local level, and they don’t like what they’re seeing and they don’t like the policies that are coming out, what should they do?

00:22:25:30 – 00:22:29:42
Joel Spangenberg
I think they should do, something like I do even here in Washington, DC.

00:22:29:43 – 00:22:30:17
David Martin
Joined the Navy.

00:22:30:32 – 00:22:46:46
Joel Spangenberg
Well, I will I will back this up into an even more basic levels. Okay. You know, I live in, within one of the, neighborhoods here. And, you know, there are sometimes things that frustrate me as a local resident in DC, you know, and it could be a whole host of things. And one of my.

00:22:46:46 – 00:22:48:51
David Martin
You about to announce your city council campaign.

00:22:48:51 – 00:23:12:40
Joel Spangenberg
You know, I’m about to mention my engagement with the city council member, DC council member, but it’s carrying every resident and citizen King care. I cared about something about the elect, you know, e-bikes, the bikes that go very quickly. And I saw some close, close to cancer. Somebody could have been hurt by young people who were on these high powered bikes that are rental bikes going around town, and I shared that with the council member.

00:23:12:55 – 00:23:36:46
Joel Spangenberg
It’s important that people can speak up, share their thoughts in respectful manner with, with an elected official. So our our city council member, DC council member. So mine is Charles Allen. Okay. And, you know, getting a response from him and engaging in a dialog. So I think that’s incumbent upon people at all levels of government and realize that the politicians or the people that we interact with, they’re humans, too, and we have to treat them that way.

00:23:36:51 – 00:23:52:57
Joel Spangenberg
And ultimately, if we’re complaining about government, guess what? We have ourselves to blame because we are those who get to elect people, and we have to continue to engage with our elected officials to help them continue to make government better. It is a journey and it has to include all of us.

00:23:53:10 – 00:24:00:22
David Martin
You tell me what drew you to public service? What kept you in public service, and who inspires you? Do you have a political hero or a heroic government?

00:24:00:26 – 00:24:20:55
Joel Spangenberg
It’s, it’s hard to say what kept me there. I think it’s just the nobility of the mission. I love the ability to serve, and I’d love the ability to try to create things and help things work better. You know, there are there have been so many wonderful people that have kind of been mentors for me or illuminated a great path in government.

00:24:20:55 – 00:24:46:54
Joel Spangenberg
I mean, I, I, you know, you could probably tell the nuclear navy in my background, one person in particular that stands out just looking back in the 20th century was Admiral Hyman Rickover. And this was, really he was a giant of engineering. He was the one who delivered the nuclear navy. And if you think about what the nuclear navy meant for this country, it actually undergirds our our success in many ways.

00:24:46:54 – 00:25:05:27
Joel Spangenberg
It gives us, you know, freedom of navigation of the seas. It allows us to to really have the strongest naval power in the world. So we have submarines that can operate better than other country submarines that allow us to have, more global strength. And also with the aircraft carriers are nuclear powered that they can provide that presence.

00:25:05:27 – 00:25:19:16
Joel Spangenberg
So thinking about people like Adam Rickover, even people who’ve continued to serve like, President Jimmy Carter’s, he was, he was a nuclear sailor and a great motivator. And he was and I’ve had so many other leaders that I’ve.

00:25:19:16 – 00:25:22:27
David Martin
Been was he’s not the first Naval Academy graduate to be president.

00:25:22:32 – 00:25:41:17
Joel Spangenberg
I but yeah, I think that’s right. And, I mean, there’s so many great leaders out there and I, you know, I’ve, I’ve had I’ve seen some as well. Admiral Frank Caldwell at Naval Reactors, he was the head of NRX when I was there, the administrator of Nisei, Lisa Gordon Haggerty, people who are truly dedicated to making government better.

00:25:41:32 – 00:25:54:23
Joel Spangenberg
And I’ve really admired that. And another person, he, you know, passed away, maybe, you know, about a decade ago was, Senator Daniel Akaka and I had a chance to be on his, committee staff from.

00:25:54:38 – 00:25:55:19
David Martin
The Hawaii, from.

00:25:55:19 – 00:26:23:49
Joel Spangenberg
Hawaii. You just seeing somebody like him who built a great relationship across the aisle with, Senator George Voinovich on that committee and the staffs below them. So I was on, one of the staffs we would work very closely with Senator Voinovich of staff in a productive manner to not find, gotchas in government, but to find real opportunities to improve and ask, the people who, appeared before our committee what we could do better, and then trying to find ways to help empower them.

00:26:23:56 – 00:26:33:16
David Martin
To get to the Naval Academy. It’s something you have to decide early on in high school that this is something you want to do. But did you see yourself with a career in public service? We, as president of the Student Council.

00:26:33:16 – 00:26:41:40
Joel Spangenberg
Nothing like that. No. If anything, I was a good student. I loved baseball. I started to get into rowing, a little bit in high school.

00:26:41:44 – 00:26:42:29
David Martin
Navy crew team.

00:26:42:44 – 00:27:07:48
Joel Spangenberg
Yeah, I did end up rowing at, at the Naval Academy on the on the heavyweight crew team. I would actually say it was just by happenstance. I heard about the Naval Academy, and it was, during my, I believe, my junior year of high school. And it just something about it stuck with me hearing the tales of, you know, what it looked like in the, in a, in a, in a challenging environment, where there was a real opportunity to go serve.

00:27:07:52 – 00:27:26:57
Joel Spangenberg
And maybe I’m kind of from that tail end of the Top Gun generation. I remembered watching that movie and also my my relative who had served in the Navy, that all had a profound, influence. But I haven’t told you this, but my parents went to UC Berkeley in the 60s, so. Yeah. So it was a little bit of,

00:27:27:01 – 00:27:28:51
David Martin
How did you feel about you going today?

00:27:28:51 – 00:27:33:57
Joel Spangenberg
But, initially my, my mom wasn’t, super excited about it.

00:27:33:57 – 00:27:34:27
David Martin
I could see.

00:27:34:27 – 00:27:36:24
Joel Spangenberg
That. And, my dad, I think he.

00:27:36:24 – 00:27:36:40
David Martin
He was.

00:27:36:48 – 00:27:57:39
Joel Spangenberg
Around. He understood it. But by the time I was a senior at the Naval Academy, what we call a first, he. My parents had become the, Washington State Parents Club co-presidents for the Naval Academy, and I felt like they had gone on more, ship rides than I had since I’d been at the. Because they kept getting offers to go visit, different ships and subs.

00:27:57:39 – 00:28:03:53
Joel Spangenberg
So, yeah, I, you know, I think the all those, all those different factors somehow seemed to work together in a favorable way.

00:28:04:00 – 00:28:09:49
David Martin
Having been in government for so long at different levels. What would you like people to know about the people who are in government?

00:28:10:00 – 00:28:32:56
Joel Spangenberg
I would say that most people in government really are there to make a difference. They really liked the idea of creating something new, making something happen, and even if they’re not super creative, they might want to make things better. So I think if there are ways we can continue to engage people in government, let’s make sure that they feel respected, valued, that they belong there.

00:28:33:10 – 00:28:48:54
Joel Spangenberg
And you can just continue to find ways to motivate them and just be positive. I think that they’ll they’ll rise to the occasion. It does seem easy for people to blame government, and I’ve already touched on that. I, you know, I, I think you have to point our fingers back at ourselves because we’re the ones so.

00:28:48:54 – 00:28:51:32
David Martin
In the city Councilman sees you coming to see how is it that guy?

00:28:51:32 – 00:29:06:44
Joel Spangenberg
You know, fortunately, I think he’s been, very good about working with me. But I would say that, but but I really do believe that I think most people see government service is noble, and they’re there to ultimately make things better for the people.

00:29:06:44 – 00:29:14:11
David Martin
When you tell people that you are the acting director of the Selective Service System, I’m sure you get a reaction. But what was the best part of the job?

00:29:14:15 – 00:29:32:27
Joel Spangenberg
Really, there were a few, a few parts of it that I liked. I really like just being able to go talk to the different people in the agency and learn more about what they did, and kind of find ways to help get things done. And, you know, being a smaller and independent agency, I felt like we had more inherent agility.

00:29:32:40 – 00:29:52:48
Joel Spangenberg
But what I also loved is they had they had done some great things and they got things even started before I got there and helping helping them do that. And one of the things was the technology modernization fund that, existed in government, where, you know, where Selective Service is one of the first agencies to really dip into that son or government wide fund to help them modernize their system.

00:29:52:48 – 00:30:26:29
Joel Spangenberg
And just to see the excitement of the IT professionals in our organization really seizing that opportunity to help drive our organization to be better with our systems. And then other things that I liked was just the opportunity to acknowledge people who had served before. So being able to go to Arlington Cemetery and acknowledge, General Hershey, who had come before me, it’s Selective Service and his service to the country and to just acknowledge those who had been drafted and who had served, was very, was very important and profound to me.

00:30:26:29 – 00:30:44:55
Joel Spangenberg
I definitely feel a deep connection with the veterans in this country. And I felt it there. And a deep responsibility. And if the country ever needed us, I felt very deeply that we had to be ready. We could not just say, you know, we need to start planning now. I had to be able to look people in the eye and say, we are ready.

00:30:44:55 – 00:30:58:58
Joel Spangenberg
We’ve been training, Mr. President. We’re ready. Congress already. Guess what the those moms and dads across America that could be sending their their son into harm’s way. I need to be able to assure them that that we’re ready and we’re being responsible.

00:30:59:09 – 00:31:00:17
David Martin
Let’s have a responsibility.

00:31:00:21 – 00:31:01:37
Joel Spangenberg
It is. Yeah.

00:31:01:42 – 00:31:12:08
David Martin
I have to ask. This is something I usually ask bears, but I’ll just go straight to it. Annapolis. Graduate. Living in Annapolis. Crab cakes or soft shell crab? Which what’s your favorite.

00:31:12:08 – 00:31:30:07
Joel Spangenberg
Dish out there? I mean, crab cakes, every day, I mean, I soft shell crab, I yeah, I’m okay with it. I grew up on the, West Coast. So in the Seattle area, we had Dungeness crab. So that was the kind of crab I liked. But I also remember, one of the great drinks in Annapolis.

00:31:30:19 – 00:31:35:07
Joel Spangenberg
Was it the sly fox? I’m not sure if was there, if it’s there anymore. They had the orange crushers, so. Oh, well.

00:31:35:09 – 00:31:36:08
David Martin
That’s the Maryland, right?

00:31:36:15 – 00:31:49:41
Joel Spangenberg
Yeah. And I definitely love Annapolis. It’s a great community. The people there are wonderful. And I just love the whole feel of the town from Annapolis. Saint John’s College, the capital, the the boating community. It’s a really wonderful place.

00:31:49:41 – 00:31:56:21
David Martin
So you are a Navy man. Are you, sailor, you got fishing? Do you have a boat somewhere? Yourself?

00:31:56:26 – 00:31:57:12
Joel Spangenberg
No. Get to get.

00:31:57:12 – 00:31:57:37
David Martin
To the water.

00:31:57:43 – 00:32:13:20
Joel Spangenberg
No. My only, nautical escape is, Every so often, I’ll get together with some of my, friends who rode on the crew team, and we’ll try to, go up and race. And the head of the Charles, which is a huge regatta up and down. Yes. So we’ll try to still do it every so often this year.

00:32:13:20 – 00:32:18:26
Joel Spangenberg
I didn’t actually do it. Okay. But, I think I might try again.

00:32:18:31 – 00:32:20:53
David Martin
Next year. Division for the head of the Charles.

00:32:20:53 – 00:32:33:03
Joel Spangenberg
Thank goodness they do. Because the, the young ones are fast. But don’t don’t think the older ones aren’t fast because we’ve been in races. There where they’re boats stacked with former national team rowers. And so even in our age category.

00:32:33:03 – 00:32:34:43
David Martin
So if you done.

00:32:34:48 – 00:32:43:21
Joel Spangenberg
So I think we could have done a little better, but we row up more recreationally. But we also know some people still take crew very seriously after all these years. And we appreciate that.

00:32:43:32 – 00:32:57:18
David Martin
This is the good government show. We I try to ended on a good government project and all your work throughout your your many years of service to the nation and to government. Tell me about a project that you know was a fun project that’s kind of special to you.

00:32:57:23 – 00:33:26:04
Joel Spangenberg
One actually goes back to my time at the, Department of Veterans Affairs, where I was the special assistant to Deputy Secretary Scott Gould. And he is truly a visionary leader. And in fact, I should have also mentioned him earlier in terms of mentors and great leaders. I’ve seen in government what we were able to do together was to create kind of this first ever, training program, really, I call learning program for current senior executives called Leading Edge.

00:33:26:04 – 00:33:46:30
Joel Spangenberg
And this was about 2012, and we were taking private sector best practices. And we had worked with the white House, to actually get support for through the President’s Management Council. So we ended up creating a program to help really bring current executives together across government for the first time. And they could hear from top leaders in government.

00:33:46:30 – 00:33:47:33
David Martin
Sharing best practices.

00:33:47:33 – 00:34:10:26
Joel Spangenberg
Sharing best practices, even having some projects they can work on government performance projects. And then, you know, that was the start of a good thing. And I think over time, that program kind of moved to OPM and they actually also used it to develop brand new senior executives. But I’d love to see that come back, because I think there’s a lot of value in ongoing learning, even for current executives.

00:34:10:31 – 00:34:25:03
Joel Spangenberg
We all have something to learn. I think even if I get it right, it was, I think Aristotle or Socrates himself even acknowledged that, how little he knew late in life. And that’s true of all of us. We just have to have the humility to understand that.

00:34:25:03 – 00:34:30:12
David Martin
Well, as a as a fellow here at, the National Academy, I’m sure you could figure out a way to make that happen.

00:34:30:12 – 00:34:31:12
Joel Spangenberg
Yes.

00:34:31:17 – 00:34:51:11
David Martin
That’ll be your next government. Joel Frankenberg, the current U.S country head and vice president of U.S Government affairs at Core Power. We didn’t get a chance to talk about that, but that’ll be the next conversation. And the former acting director of U.S select the US Selective Service System, it was a pleasure having you on. Thank you. Thanks for coming.

00:34:51:11 – 00:34:51:36
David Martin
Hey, David.

00:34:51:36 – 00:34:54:54
Joel Spangenberg
It was a pleasure to have this opportunity to talk with you today. Thank you.

00:34:55:03 – 00:35:16:13
David Martin
Thank you. We want to hear more about good government. Check out another show I host leading Iowa good Government in Iowa cities. I host the show with Brad Cavanaugh, mayor of Dubuque, Iowa, and the immediate past president of the Iowa League of Cities. Together, we talk to leaders in Iowa cities. We talk about what works and what good government looks like in Iowa.

00:35:16:18 – 00:35:24:53
David Martin
Join us right here. We listening now that’s leading Iowa. Good government in Iowa. Cities.

00:35:24:57 – 00:35:46:52
David Martin
It was called the War to End All Wars. But it didn’t. Three royal cousins all kings, one from England, one from Germany and one from Russia blundered their way into a war, a completely avoidable war that left millions dead in the trenches across Europe. Good government show executive producer Jim Ludlow details the blunders, mistakes and bluster that started World War One that didn’t end all wars.

00:35:46:57 – 00:36:06:25
David Martin
The book The Royal Cousins details the events and creates an alternative history. Imagine a World War one never happened. It didn’t have to just read it yourself. Download the book today on Amazon. It’s just $0.99 and a timely look at history.

00:36:06:30 – 00:36:23:31
David Martin
If you’re between the ages of 18 and 24, I hope you got a good reminder to register for Selective Service. Don’t forget, I like what he had to say about creating a more agile and nimble government, a government that can adapt changes quickly. And he had a great seat to really see how the Senate operates. The crossroads of government, he called it.

00:36:23:44 – 00:36:40:27
David Martin
And I looked it up. So far, Jimmy Carter is the only National Academy graduate to become president. Here’s a little more presidential trivia. West point can claim two presidents, generals, U.S. Grant and Dwight Eisenhower. Well, that’s our show. Thanks for listening. Please like us and share this with your friends and review us right here. Real Estate. And check out our website.

00:36:40:29 – 00:36:58:55
David Martin
Good Government show.com for extras. Help us keep telling stories of good government and action everywhere. Join us again for another episode right here. I’m Dave Martin and this is the Good Government show.

00:36:59:00 – 00:37:20:37
David Martin
The Good Government show is a Valley Park production. Jim Ludlow, Dave Martin, that’s me and David Snyder are the executive producers. Our show is edited and produced by Jason Stershic. Please subscribe then share and like us and reviews. That’s the best way to make sure we’re able to keep telling these stories of our government working for all of us.

00:37:20:49 – 00:37:36:00
David Martin
Then listen to the next episode of The Good Government Show.

00:37:36:05 – 00:37:38:45
Joel Spangenberg
This podcast is part of the democracy Group.

**This transcription was created using digital tools and has not been edited by a live person. We apologize for any discrepancies or errors.